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Welcome to the Human Experience, a podcast about the stories we

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live out every day and the importance of championing the vulnerability and

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courage of the storyteller. I'm your host, Jennifer Peterkin,

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and it was through my own lived story of experiencing domestic violence that

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this podcast was created. By traveling the globe and interviewing

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each guest in person, I am convinced now more than ever that stories

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have the power to change the world. Thank you for being here.

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In a world full of noise, to listen with intention is an

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act of resistance. Stephen, thank you so much

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for sitting down with me. I'm so excited to dig into your

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story. How you got here, what you're doing, and how your

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experiences have shaped who you are today. Sounds great.

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Jennifer, I know you wrote a book called Walk on and I'm assuming that's

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kind of where we're gonna stick to today in terms of what

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your story means to you. But if I ask you the question,

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where does your story begin? How would you start that? Sadly, it begins

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on August 9, 2020. That was the day that our 16 year old son was

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killed. So everything literally changed in my life that day.

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I mean, everything. And it was by

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far the hardest thing I've ever had to endure and still are enduring.

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It's tough because it literally just,

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it changed who I am. It changed who my wife is, who Liam,

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Jake's little brother, is. And so it's

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been very complex to say the least. Yeah. In moving forward, but we have found

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a way. We are walking on. It's not for the

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faint of heart. I wouldn't wish this upon anybody. Yeah.

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I'm so sorry for your loss. I appreciate you saying that.

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I can't even imagine the depth of your

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grief. To lose anybody is difficult. To lose

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a child, especially so unexpectedly, I imagine is

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devastating beyond belief. I feel like at

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that age too, it's never going to be okay. It's never going to be good.

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But at that age too, like so much is beginning

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for kids. They're becoming young adults.

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They're maybe getting their driver's licenses and they're maybe, you know,

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getting more independence going out into the world.

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And so to have that cut short is such a,

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I imagine, jarring experience. And there's a lot

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to contend with there. Yeah, it was a complete out of body experience. We found

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out via phone call first. It was a phone call.

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Jake had gone away on a weekend getaway to Black island, which is a small

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island off the coast of Rhode island with his girlfriend of just a

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few weeks and her family. And it was her Mother and her brother.

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We had reluctantly let him go. We initially had said no.

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And then a storm came through our community,

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a little microburst storm that took out some trees, which took out power lines.

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So it was the dog days of summer, was really hot.

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We had no power. And so on Wednesday, we changed

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our mind, still without power, and said, okay, you can go. So he left on

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Friday morning. And on Sunday around 1 o', clock, my wife

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received a phone call from the other mom that there'd been an accident. Jake was

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injured. Those were the only details that we had. So we.

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I grabbed Liam and Kelly quickly packed an overnight bag, and we ran

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to our car and began speeding towards Rhode Island. And we were about 12 minutes

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into the drive when Kelly's phone rang again. It was connected to

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the car speaker, and this time it was a doctor from Rhode island who introduced

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himself. He paused and he said, I'm sorry, I just pronounced your son dead.

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And everything just went black. Kelly screamed the most primal,

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guttural scream I've ever heard. Never want to hear again.

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Then I was flying. I was in the left lane doing about 85. I needed

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to get over. It was like. It was like time stopped. Everything just moved

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in slow motion. And I got over and exited at the first exit

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I could get to. And again, it was a Sunday, so a lot of things

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were closed. And we literally drove right off the exit and straight ahead was a

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bank empty parking lot. And we just pulled straight in there and got

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out of the car. We were screaming and crying and just

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kind of ran circles until we all kind of fell into each other's arms and

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fell to the ground. And later that night, we learned the details,

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and Jake was a passenger in a vehicle that was operated recklessly,

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went off the road and crashed. The driver was arrested on

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DUI and reckless driving charges, and the driver turned out to be

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his teenage girlfriend. Oh, gosh. Oh, my God.

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Yeah. Were they on their way home? No,

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they were actually on their way to the ferry to

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change some tickets of some friends of theirs that had come in to visit for

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the day. We had no idea that these friends were even going there.

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We never would have agreed to it. There's three boys,

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and they decided, after having some

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fun at the beach, let's change our tickets and spend the night.

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And the mother agreed to let them sleep over and accepted

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responsibility for three more boy teenagers in her house, which is a little odd

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to us, but she did. So they needed to. You couldn't change it on via

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the phone. You had to go in person. So they were heading there, but they

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had been drinking, all of them. And she,

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the girlfriend, made a really dumb decision and got behind the wheel. The mom

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handed her the keys foolishly. It was just a disaster all

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the way around. There was at one point there was 1,

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2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 teenage boys in that car because

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her brother and his friend had hopped in. They dropped them off at a kayak

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shop. And then a mile later, down the road, the accident happened.

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And Jake was killed. Another boy was airlifted off

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the island. He survived. He's fine now.

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And yeah, it was like your life implodes. I mean,

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complete out of body. You don't feel like you're connected to this planet

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anymore. You see the world moving forward, but you feel like you're just literally

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in quicksand. Yeah. And your body's in traumatic

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shock, which is protecting you for as long as it can.

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And I'm now five years and a month out.

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And we literally just. We came from Parents Weekend this

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past weekend. We have a daughter now. It's another story we'll get to who's

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a sophomore at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. And so we

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went and visited for Parents Weekend this past weekend. And these

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are the things that bereaved parents have to tackle. Right. There's like, we have

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such joy that we have this new daughter in our life and

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gratitude for that, but everything comes with triggers. So here we

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are at Parents Weekend. I'm watching a football game. Her boyfriend plays

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on the football team. And I'm thinking that my son's supposed to be a senior

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in college. I never got to watch a football game with him. Something that we,

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we shared a deep affinity for college football. And I know he would have gone

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to a school with, with a football program, and no matter where he went and

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we would have. We always dreamed of going to games together. Right. And tailgating and

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having. Just having a father son. We had a lot of father son sports

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moments. So you're hit with that loss. It's just everything is

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kind of a coin now. There's the joy on one side, and then on the

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other side is agony and grief. Yeah. It's the death of the person,

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but it's also the death of the dreams that you had for them. The future.

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Yeah. Is completely gone. Yeah. You lose everything.

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You lose seeing them graduate high school, college,

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getting married, having kids, having a career,

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just all the holidays, all the anniversaries. And so,

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you know, it's. Your whole outlook changes when something like this happens. You initially,

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you don't believe in anything anymore. You don't trust anything or anyone anymore.

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I was nervous the first time the three of us got back into a car

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and got on 95 again. And each one of us had our own independent

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panic attack around that. Cause that's how we found out. And especially

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heading in that same direction, it's just challenging to move

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forward for any bereaved parent. And I think there's. Jake left such a

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big footprint. He lived in every time zone. So he had friends all across the

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country. He was an extrovert on steroids and

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played sports. So he knew kids all over this county with

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travel, sports, and he just made friends everywhere he went. He was in three church

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youth groups. Wow. He just. Jake couldn't get enough of life.

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And so there's a lot of triggers.

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Yeah. And it makes it. You know, you'd think five years.

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Right. He should be doing better. I'm doing a lot better. But this is a

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life sentence. And you learn to. You learn to walk on

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and hold space for it because you have to. But that grief is

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always there, just like a dragon. And some days he rears up and

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roars up and reminds you how big and dark and fierce grief can be.

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And other days it's just kind of like water off the back. Yeah. So it

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just depends. But it's. It makes it complicated for sure. Because everything.

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Like I said, we all suffered the same tragedy. Kelly, Liam and

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I, but we all cope and process differently. So there's a layer. Right.

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Where men and women grieve differently. So there's a

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lot to it. Which, like I said, really complicates life

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moving forward. You have to think through things. You develop healthier boundaries.

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Saying yes and no to things, you really evaluate and reflect.

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Can I do that? Do I have the capacity? You know? Yeah, just little things.

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Right. You've run it. My. Like, my wife the other day went to the grocery

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store and all these moms were talking about every row she turned into.

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There was just another mom running into another mom whose son was at college.

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And they were talking about drop off. You know, how did your drop off go?

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And my wife's like, I couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

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Sure. This is a life sentence, like you said. That was a. The perfect

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way to put it. And I think grief is something that we're

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really uncomfortable with until we have to face it ourselves.

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And even then we can be uncomfortable with it, but we don't have a choice.

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Right. We have to kind of find our way through that marshland.

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I think it's really important, though, that we have these conversations

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about grief, because, again, we are uncomfortable

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with it. We're uncomfortable with other people's grief, and we're uncomfortable with

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other people's timelines on grief. And we don't really have the right

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to be, but we like to fix things. Right. I think especially in

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our culture of productivity, we have to get something checked off a

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list. Yeah. And so for us to be like, well,

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Stephen's still. Stephen's still grieving. I can't

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say, like, he's okay. And, you know, check. Check him off of my friend

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list. Like, he's good. I don't have to worry about him. And that's just

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life. Right. Like, life is about the tension and about the things that are

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constantly happening and how we act and react around them.

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So I think it's wonderful and extremely

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brave of you to talk about this with such candor, because a lot

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of people can't. And that's okay. Like you said, people grieve differently.

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But I think it's incredibly important that you have chosen to

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this path because you're capable of doing it.

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Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I feel like I've been called to

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do it. And some of it is through Jake, and some of it is through

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God. And it. What I've learned is that our vulnerability is our strength.

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So it's the opposite of what we're taught, especially as men. Yes. My father

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always was like, get down. Get back up again. And I certainly applied that credo

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to much of my life. I've been knocked down. I went. I. We lived in

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New Orleans and were uprooted by Hurricane Katrina. Oh, wow. We've had our share

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of adverse life situations that we've had to deal with and overcome and.

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But it was all child's play compared to this. Losing a child is

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unnatural. It's out of the. Out of order.

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Parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. And so

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I had a choice. Right. And it wasn't easy. It took a while. I was

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lost. I had no meaning. I had no purpose in my life other than pure

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survival for myself and my wife and son, who at different points

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in time, in the first two years, didn't want to live. So it was very

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rife with challenge and dark. We were in a very dark

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place. And what helped me was we

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set up a scholarship fund initially, in the days right

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after Jake passed, because we realized one. We were getting so many flowers, and we

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didn't need any more flowers. And Kelly And I sat down and said, what would

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Jake want? And Jake lived his life lifting up others. That's just who he was.

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It was intuitive, it was natural. Whoever he encountered, he just had

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a way of knowing what they needed. And he brought

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joy everywhere he went. So he had been on a mission trip a year

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before out to South Dakota to Pine Ridge Indian Reservation,

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and really identified and took

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great umbrage with how he saw the inequalities,

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the witnesses he witnessed between how he lived as a teenage boy

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in Fairfield, Connecticut, and how they were living in Pine Ridge,

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South Dakota. And so we decided to create a scholarship

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to help those young children out there, because that's what Jake would want to do.

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So the first, it was initially called the Jake Panis Memorial

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Scholarship, and it rewards Lakota

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children from Red Shirt. TABLE Attending Red Shirt Indian School with

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college scholarships. So that was the first one. And then Jake's dream

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was to go to University of South Carolina and follow in my footsteps.

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And as a father, I felt a responsibility to make sure he got there in

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some way, in spirit. So as it turned out, I had

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been ideating as much as one could, but I was a mess. And it was

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two days before our first Christmas, 2020,

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and my wife and I took a walk down to the beach just

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to get away. It was very joyless time in this house. We were trying to

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put a happy face on it for Liam as best we could, but it was.

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It was not easy. And so I left my phone behind, which was uncharacteristic.

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I just wanted a break. And an hour or so later, we came home and

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I checked my phone, and there was a voicemail and a phone number with an

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843 prefix, which is the Charleston, South Carolina, area, low country.

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So I figured it was a college roommate trying to cheer me up around the

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holidays. And I played the message, and lo and behold, it was Shane Beamer,

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who's the head football coach at the University of South Carolina. He had just been

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hired two weeks prior, and here he was taking time

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out to call us. He wanted to check in on Liam and Kelly and

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I, but he was really concerned about Liam. He'd heard the story from

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a mutual friend, and just the fact that he took time out.

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He was in the middle of hiring complete staff, recruiting not

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only his new recruits, but trying to keep the kids on the team from transferring

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to other schools. And he had more than his share of responsibilities

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at the moment. But here he was taking time out to check in on Liam

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and I. I was really struck by that and we had a great conversation.

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And after I hung up the phone, I turned to Kelly and I was like,

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you know, I think I have a way to get Jake to South Carolina.

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And I waited till after the holidays and mid January.

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I reached back out to Shane and shared the idea of creating a walk on

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scholarship. And Shane was a walk on himself at Virginia Tech. So he

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immediately embraced the scholarship, loved it, the idea. We raised

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the money and quickly we had an endowed scholarship called

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the Jake Panis Walk on Walk on Football Scholarship at the University of

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South Carolina. So now we had two scholarships. And that

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September 2021 I went down to award the first one at South Carolina

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and that's when I kind of had my first pivot.

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I was still a mess, but I was granted

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the opportunity to speak to the team and announce the scholarship. So at 7:45 the

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whole team was gathered, coaching staff and I walked into the team meeting room and

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Shane introduced me. And I got up there and I'm not a public speaker

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by trade. I was always. My background is a sports agent,

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attorney. I'm the guy in the behind the curtain, right? I'm the one, you know,

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orchestrating the appearances on behalf of my clients and

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putting them out in front. And Jake was more the spotlight guy. I wasn't.

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So here I was standing up in front of all these 100 and so people

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and just internally shaking inside, just, I was

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like, oh my God, what am I, what am I doing? And I gave a

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speech and I gave it from like, what would Jake want these kids to hear?

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And it was like Jake was behind me, holding me up because I was,

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I don't know how I did it, but I did it and I awarded the

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scholarship and the young man came down. Matthew Bailey was the first recipient, a long

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snapper. And even some of Jake's friends afterward said, man, he kind

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of has similar hair to Jake and. But when he walked up towards me to

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hug me, he. I could just see the joy in his face. But I also

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saw Jake in his face and that really, it was the first time I kind

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of felt joy again in my heart. And I realized how powerful that was.

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And it set the. Set me on a pathway of helping

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others. And that was going to be my way to walk on. I was going

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to be able to help others with their own struggle because as you mentioned,

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grief is indiscriminate and it's universal, right? It comes in a variety of different

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forms. We associate grief with death only sometimes. But grief happens

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when small scale stuff. The teenager doesn't get into

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the his or her college of their choice. Their boyfriend breaks up with them.

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A relationship fails. In an adult couple,

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you run into a financial crisis. A medical condition is

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diagnosed and it's not good. An addiction forms.

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Your house is taken away by a fire or tornado or

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earthquake or you don't know, hurricane. You pick the, the natural

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disaster. There's grief is everywhere and we just don't want to admit it. Like you

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said, we don't want to talk about it. So I decided

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to write a little bit. And I was writing about my. I was writing

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a goodbye letter to Jake and never intended to write a book.

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And I thought I could do something that would

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help Liam, maybe one, you know, to figure out what to

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do and because I looked at Liam probably two

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or three months in and I was like, oh my God, I'm 52 years old,

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grown man and I am struggling. How is an 11 year old boy

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supposed to process and, and really cope with losing his beloved

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older brother? So I asked Liam to, to meet me outside and we walked

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across our property and I told him to get his buck knife and he ran

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upstairs and got it and we walked over there to an old mature tree and

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I had him carve off a swath of bark. So he carved off this little

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rectangle of bark and he looked at me, said,

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now what, dad? And I said, now we're going to watch this tree heal.

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It's going to take time. It's not going to be the same.

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We're going to see if the tree can regrow new bark over this scar.

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It may be a different color, could be a different texture, it may not

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fully cover it, but the tree is going to find a way to heal.

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And just like this tree, so is our heart. And we're going to together walk

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on. We're going to find a way. It's going to take time. I'm not going

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to lie to you. We're never going to be the same, Liam. But we do.

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All the answers are within us and we have to lean on them.

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We have to lean on our faith and we have to lean on each other

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to walk on. And I wanted him to believe in himself more than anybody.

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So after that experience, I again

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was just writing this goodbye letter to Jake that was very hard. Stop and start.

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And that's when I realized I had this tradition with my boys

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where I would write, post it sticky note messages every morning. Started when Jake was

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five and then obviously continued with Liam. And it was all about inspirational messages

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around key Values and character traits that I thought were important in life, many non

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negotiable. And I just wanted to impart wisdom and inspiration

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into their developing heart, mind and souls. And somehow I stumbled across a

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lot of the old notes. My wife had kept them this all on little posted

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sticky notes, yellow notes. And I needed to, when I looked at them, I was

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just like, this is all, you know, it just doesn't mean anything now.

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So I had to really question the veracity that was

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inside of those messages and what I had modeled as the truth to my boys.

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And in doing that reflection and that search,

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the writing changed from a goodbye letter to Jake to more of just honoring

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Jake and what he stood for and our relationship,

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but also Liam and the journey out. And that's

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what emerges. My book, titled Walk on, which honors the

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scholarships. It also honors what we need to do as a family.

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And I later learned that when I was out in May of 2022,

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awarding the first scholarship at Red Cloud Indian School, when the

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elders asked me at the school, how did I come up with the name

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Walk On, I explained, it's a term that's used for a student athlete

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who's not on a scholarship. They work hard, sometimes they're undersized,

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they came from a small school, so they're overlooked. And they go and they

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perform well and prove themselves to the coaches and ultimately earn a scholarship.

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And they were like, wow, that's pretty cool. We have a different meaning.

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And I'm like, wow, what's that? And they said, well, we believe that when one

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dies, they walk on in the journey, and it's not a linear pathway and

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it's just the next logical step. And I was like, wow, that's really cool.

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So it really married it all together. And when I finished

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it, I thought, wow, this, this can definitely help Liam one day, but maybe it

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can help others. So on a lark, I decided to send out book pitch letters

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to a variety of publishing houses and agents, literary agents, and lo

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and behold, I had four that were interested. And I ended up publishing it with

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Kohler Books out of Virginia Beach, Virginia, Great small

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publishing company, but they were fantastic to work with.

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And I donate all the proceeds of the book sales to the scholarships.

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And it's been wonderful because I've gotten a lot of incredible feedback from, like,

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from people who've lost loved ones to people who've just struggled with their own hardship

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or suffering. Because again, it's not just about losing someone. It's about

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grief in its purest form. And the

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first chapter is Hard to read. And then after that, I tell people the book

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becomes a lot more inspiring and uplifting. And that's what it's designed

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to do, is just to represent everything. Like I said, that Jake stood for,

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which was to lift up others. That's a long winded answer, I realized. But.

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Oh, my gosh, no, please. I have gotten chills so many times as

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you've been telling your story. Just the intention with

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which you have pursued Jake's legacy and

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the support that you've gotten along the way.

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It's just a beautiful. It's a tragically beautiful

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story. You know, nobody wants this. And this never should

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have happened. Yeah, but it did. And what you

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have created out of it, what you and your family have created out of it,

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is something that me, who, not knowing Jake

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a day in my life, could say that he would be proud of. I appreciate

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that, as you said, you. You've had your share of adversity before

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this, but how do you even begin to wrap

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your mind around the grief process when this. Something like

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this happened when you. When you lose a child? Yeah, it's a good question.

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It. It takes a lot of time for us.

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And again, grief is an individual journey, as we discussed, so everyone has to

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find what works for them. But for us. We knew we needed help badly.

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And my wife, within 30 days, found a therapist, grief therapist, who specializes in

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grief therapy for 40 years, and he's out of Cambridge,

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Mass. So we had virtual meetings three times a week for the

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first year, and then it moved to two times a week, I believe. And I

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just. I still stay in touch with the therapist. I don't see him regularly anymore,

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but I still have emergency sessions. My wife is still seeing him,

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but not as regularly. But you lean on that because you

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need. You need a place to go that's safe and that you can just talk.

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And I just went and cried a lot. And I was.

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Like I said I was a bundle. If you don't cry when. When something like

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this happens, like something's wrong with you. And I didn't just cry.

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I weeped until my bones rattled. I mean, I was down and out.

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It's just. It's a gut punch like nothing. You're literally knocked to the ground.

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And you. I, thankfully, because I was raised with a deep faith

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and optimism, I landed on that. So there was some pliancy to

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hitting the cement that we were knocked down to. And I never gave up

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hope, but I was helpless like there was watching my wife

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just completely suffer, struggle, hurt. And there was Nothing I

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could do to change that. And you mentioned earlier how we're. We're all. As humans,

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we're geared to fix things. And this is. You can't fix this. There's nothing I

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could say that was going to swish your pain, make it better in any way.

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There's nothing anybody could say. And so you're learning how to handle people

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coming up to you and saying whatever they think. Sometimes it's good,

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sometimes it's bad. It lands flat when people say, like, well, God needed an

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angel. And I'm like, well, then take your kid. Yeah, right.

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But then you realize that people don't know what to say because we're also

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scared shitless of grief. And nobody wants to be around parent.

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If you're a parent, you don't want to be around a set of parents who've

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just lost a child. It's just like, almost like bad chi, right? It's going to.

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Oh, yeah. Contagious. But it's not. I mean, it's. We all are

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dealing with grief in some form, and it's been. It's come out even more in

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the wake of COVID Right. And we became isolated and people got lonely

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and grief really started to grow. So it's. I felt

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like if I could help others, it would

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help me. And it also keeps me connected to Jake by going out

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and speaking and writing this book and publishing it and. And where I mentioned

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earlier, I lost a future with him. This gives me some future where Jake and

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I are still on this journey. And everywhere I go, he goes. There's a

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great quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, a great Buddhist monk,

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late monk, who said, it's the concept of inner being.

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When they die, a part of us dies, but when we. We live, they live

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on through us. So it really came down to that. And I'm

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a big reader. I started to read every book I could get my

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hands on about grief and loss and life spirituality.

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And one of the quotes that right before I left for South Carolina and gave

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that speech that really helped allow me to stand up there and

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give the speech, was a quote by Aldous Huxley that says, experience isn't what happens

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to a man. This is what a man does with what happens to him.

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And then. Then I got led to Victor Franco and man search for meaning.

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And, you know, and you realize he was so right when he was like,

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forces beyond your control can take away everything you possess, except one thing,

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and that's your freedom to choose how you're going to respond. We don't

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control what happens in life, but we control what we think and do about what

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happens to us. And that really hit home. You know,

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it's like we're at a crossroads. We can wallow and

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say, why me? Why us? Why did this happen? Be mad at God and be

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bitter and angry, or we can move to the light as hard as it

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was going to be and, you know, take it literally. We live one hour

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at a time, one day at a time. I still live one day at a

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time now, very focused on the present moment, but recognizing that

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it was a choice. I could either be the victim or I could be

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the victor, if you will, and just find a way to. To honor Jake and

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to also make sure that Liam rose up and it becomes everything

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that he potentially can be in life. And to make sure that

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the same for Kelly, that we could find a way to

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walk on and to do it in a way that helps

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others. We've since launched the third Jake Panis Walk on Scholarship

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here in Bridgeport, Connecticut, with a Boys and Girls club that Jake was very

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active in. This one helps inner city kids who are underprivileged

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and underserved that participate in a fourth

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and eighth grade football program. And then they stay active in the Boys and Girls

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club through high school. They're rewarded with college scholarships. So we've awarded eight in five

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years, and it's incredibly fulfilling. And most importantly is

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each recipient now carries a part of Jake in their heart forward with them.

441
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:33,090
And that to a brief parent, that's everything. Truly. I can only imagine

442
00:28:34,290 --> 00:28:37,450
there's. So, you know, we talk about the stages of grief that there's so

443
00:28:37,950 --> 00:28:41,410
many different feelings and emotions and

444
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:45,650
places you go. And I think it's all important in the story of grief

445
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:49,930
because as we've mentioned multiple times, we don't all grieve the same

446
00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:53,970
way. But I think it's equally important that you can talk about your

447
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:58,210
grief and hope in the same sentence and not contradict

448
00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:02,360
yourself. And I think that's a misconception that we hold generally about grief,

449
00:29:02,860 --> 00:29:06,240
is that you're. If you're talking about hope, your grief is gone. And that's just

450
00:29:06,740 --> 00:29:10,080
not true. Yeah, well, think about it. I mean, when parent, when someone

451
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:12,520
says, well, like, why do you have a picture of your kids still up?

452
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,880
Well, he's my child. Right. Just like you have a picture of your child,

453
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:19,760
you know, they're their child for your life. And I'm still living. And so Jake

454
00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:23,640
is, like I mentioned, just he's living through me. And I Still have,

455
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,310
you know, have things happen, signs. It's. You realize.

456
00:29:27,810 --> 00:29:30,750
What I've realized is the veil between here and there is way thinner than we're

457
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:35,470
led to believe. And maybe that's part of it. I think that God

458
00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:39,670
has come through me, and I often wondered why. Initially, I was like, why is

459
00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:44,110
this happening? Why am I becoming a public speaker? Why am I walking

460
00:29:44,610 --> 00:29:48,270
down this new pathway that I never even considered before or

461
00:29:48,770 --> 00:29:52,390
would have even ventured to consider? And what I've come to realize is

462
00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:56,530
that it's through broken vessels that God's light can

463
00:29:57,030 --> 00:30:00,890
shine through. And that's. That's what's happened for me, is I have a

464
00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:04,330
completely different relationship with God than I've ever had. It's much closer.

465
00:30:04,810 --> 00:30:07,930
I'm very spiritual, more spiritual than religious.

466
00:30:08,430 --> 00:30:12,490
And I've seen things and had things happen that are unexplainable

467
00:30:13,530 --> 00:30:17,050
to the. To the human five senses,

468
00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:20,970
but they're real. I've experienced them, and I know. So I know that there's something

469
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:24,960
else out there, and I know that it's something. It's powerful, and I know that

470
00:30:25,460 --> 00:30:29,320
Jake's right there because I've. I've seen it, I felt it, I've touched it.

471
00:30:29,820 --> 00:30:32,360
I've heard him. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

472
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,120
So you mentioned a daughter. Yeah. Where does

473
00:30:37,620 --> 00:30:40,760
she come into the picture? So this is crazy. And this. This will speak to

474
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,840
some of the spirituality and other worldliness stuff, but I

475
00:30:46,340 --> 00:30:48,080
got to go back in time to kind of set it up. So when Jake

476
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:51,880
was three, we lived in. We just moved from Colorado to Las Vegas,

477
00:30:52,130 --> 00:30:55,170
where I was then working for Andre Agassi and Stephanie Graf,

478
00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:58,290
tennis superstars. So we moved to Vegas.

479
00:30:58,790 --> 00:31:02,090
Jake was enrolled in a Montessori school, and he began telling everyone there

480
00:31:02,590 --> 00:31:05,850
that he had a sister. And the teachers asked us

481
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:09,330
one day, and we're like, no, Jake doesn't have a sister. He's an only child.

482
00:31:10,530 --> 00:31:14,210
And we just kind of laughed it off. And. But both. He was insistent and

483
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:17,810
that he had a sister and both grandmothers became a little worried with his imagination.

484
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:21,000
We were just like, it's fine. He's all right. But he. And I asked

485
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:23,200
him one day, I think he was about 5, and I just said, why do

486
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:26,680
you say that? He goes, because I do. And I said, okay. And we just

487
00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:29,720
kind of left it at that. He. He would draw family pictures at school,

488
00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:33,240
you know, like kids do with crayons and whatnot. And I actually found one,

489
00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:36,000
and I'll show you in a minute on my phone. He drew a picture when

490
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:39,600
he was 4 or 5. And when I found

491
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:43,360
it after he died, I was just like, oh my God, I'd forgotten

492
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:47,010
about this. He. The picture has me labeled as dad.

493
00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:50,290
Above it says, dad, it's got a dog. We had one dog at the time,

494
00:31:50,790 --> 00:31:54,130
dog. Then it's got mom over here. And this is me for Jake

495
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:58,010
with his curly. He had a beautiful blonde afro, yellow curls that men

496
00:31:58,510 --> 00:32:01,810
and women alike would kill for. And then it had Liam,

497
00:32:02,130 --> 00:32:05,770
said Liam, smaller than Jake. And then Liam was holding the hand

498
00:32:06,270 --> 00:32:09,610
of his sister. And when I found this

499
00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:12,740
picture, I was like, oh my God. So, so now fast forward. It's 2015,

500
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,740
a year before Jake dies. And he just come back from that mission trip.

501
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,460
He's a 15 year old boy and he tells one of his friends that he

502
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,060
has a sister. And about three weeks later, I was at a sporting event,

503
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,460
a horse. I worked in horse racing at the time. So I was at a

504
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,700
Saratoga race course with a dad whose son went on the trip with

505
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,900
Jake. And the dad asked me, hey man, can I ask you a really awkward

506
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,340
question? As we were sitting there enjoying a good day at the races. And I

507
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,200
said, mark, you can ask me anything, man. He's like, did you and Kelly have

508
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:46,320
previous marriages? And then you got to conjoin families like the Brady Bunch? And I

509
00:32:46,820 --> 00:32:49,800
laughed like that. Just like you're laughing, Jennifer. I'm like, no, why do you ask?

510
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,960
And he goes, well, because Jake told my son he has a sister.

511
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,080
And I left. And I was like, oh my God, I haven't heard that in

512
00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:01,080
years. And I couldn't wait to get home and tell Kelly, like, you're never

513
00:33:01,580 --> 00:33:05,160
going to believe what Jake has said again. And so

514
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:09,590
then a year later, he dies. And about six months

515
00:33:10,090 --> 00:33:13,230
after he died, Kelly one day said, and I'll

516
00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:15,590
never forget it, she just turned to me and said, when the time is right,

517
00:33:15,910 --> 00:33:19,310
Jake is going to send someone to us. I said, okay.

518
00:33:19,810 --> 00:33:23,590
And I didn't doubt her for a minute. So then in the fall

519
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:27,230
of 2022, Kelly asked me to let

520
00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:31,430
the ministers at our church know that if they ever learn of anyone,

521
00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:34,980
a child in need of love and a home to let us know.

522
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:39,460
And we had also started foster parent classes

523
00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:42,940
with the state. We started it and then we stopped because it

524
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,899
just, it wasn't right at the time. We got about halfway and we realized maybe

525
00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:51,300
this isn't right for us right now. We were still obviously very much hurting,

526
00:33:52,420 --> 00:33:55,860
so we stopped. And then now three months later, that was like November.

527
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,980
Now three months later, it's February 2023.

528
00:33:59,990 --> 00:34:03,790
It's cold here in the northeast in the winter. And we decided to get away.

529
00:34:04,290 --> 00:34:07,430
And Liam could do school from long distance because of COVID still

530
00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:10,390
distance learning and whatnot. So we.

531
00:34:11,110 --> 00:34:14,550
We decided to go to Antigua and Barbuda. Barbuda is

532
00:34:15,050 --> 00:34:18,150
a small island right off Antigua to get warm weather,

533
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:22,230
to totally relax, to get away. And we literally

534
00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:25,510
just landed in Barbuda, small third world tiny island.

535
00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:29,410
And my phone buzzes and it's a note text from our minister.

536
00:34:29,970 --> 00:34:33,650
Hey, there's this young girl. She's a scholar athlete,

537
00:34:33,890 --> 00:34:37,650
but she's about to be. She's been homeless since October. She's couch

538
00:34:38,150 --> 00:34:40,930
surfed, and she's currently on the couch of a fellow church member,

539
00:34:41,410 --> 00:34:45,650
but she's getting placed into the foster system. Are you guys interested?

540
00:34:45,730 --> 00:34:49,130
And I just wrote yes. And then I went and told Kelly. And Kelly

541
00:34:49,630 --> 00:34:52,990
spent much of the rest of the vacation on the phone with the mom that

542
00:34:53,490 --> 00:34:56,310
she was currently staying with and then the social workers to try to figure out

543
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:59,510
the situation. And as it turned out, it was good that we had started those

544
00:35:00,010 --> 00:35:03,390
classes because that gave them some comfort level with with

545
00:35:03,890 --> 00:35:07,070
us as parents. And we came home from that trip

546
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:10,790
thinking there was about 75% chance that in a week or 10 days she may

547
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:14,550
come to us. We weren't really sure. We hadn't told Liam

548
00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:18,500
yet or discussed it with him because we didn't want to cause alarm

549
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,820
if nothing was going to happen. But we also knew when we got home,

550
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,060
we had to tackle Jake's room. We had not touched it. It pretty much sat

551
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,260
as it was. And that was very hard, but we did it and we

552
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,820
tried to feminize the room. Here was a boy's room,

553
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,340
right, painted in blue. And we didn't repaint or anything. We just rearranged it.

554
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,500
Kelly got some more colorful items you might say to put in there.

555
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:44,660
And the next day we got a phone call at around noon saying

556
00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:47,640
we're bringing her over at 8 o' clock tonight night. And we're like, oh my

557
00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:51,200
gosh. So Liam got home from school, we took him for a walk. We told

558
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:54,120
him what was going on, and we asked him, are you okay with this?

559
00:35:54,620 --> 00:35:57,640
Because if you're not okay, we will work with them to find a home

560
00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:01,240
for her. And he's like, no, this is. She needs a home.

561
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:05,360
We need to take her in. So April arrived that night,

562
00:36:05,860 --> 00:36:10,040
and she had a backpack and a small duffel bag that was her worldly possessions.

563
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,170
And the Liam gave her a tour of the house as we met with

564
00:36:14,670 --> 00:36:18,290
the social workers and signed all the paperwork. And she may have heard the social

565
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:22,210
workers say goodbye to us. Goodbye, Mr. And Mrs. Panis, I think.

566
00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:26,770
But I took her upstairs to show her her bedroom, and I

567
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:30,330
did. And I said, hey, you can unpack the. All the drawers are empty.

568
00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:34,330
Make yourself at home. And I started to walk out, and she asked

569
00:36:34,830 --> 00:36:38,680
a really great question. Hey, how long am I going to be here? And I

570
00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:42,000
turned around, I said, as long as you want, it's all up to you.

571
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,520
But as long as you could be here for the rest of your life if

572
00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:48,560
you want, it's all, you know. And she kind of smiled, so she started unpacking.

573
00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:52,400
Then Kelly came up, and I gave them some time, girl time.

574
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,080
And I was in the other room on our room. Then I heard April

575
00:36:56,580 --> 00:36:59,800
ask, who's. Whose room is this? And Kelly had told her that we

576
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:03,890
had lost a son prior to her coming. And so

577
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:08,210
she knew she was coming into a house of trauma and that it

578
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:11,850
just felt fair to tell her that. And obviously she was coming from her own

579
00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:15,370
trauma. And she said, is this a guest room?

580
00:37:15,870 --> 00:37:18,650
And Kelly's like, no, this is our late son's room. And she's like, what was

581
00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:22,410
his name? And Kelly said, jake. And all

582
00:37:22,910 --> 00:37:26,610
of a sudden, I hear April say, jake Panis. And both of

583
00:37:27,110 --> 00:37:30,520
our heads just kind of snapped, you know, Kelly's like, yeah. She's like,

584
00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:34,280
oh, my God, I heard of him. She goes, I didn't know him, but I

585
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,000
heard about him. And I. I know everyone, you know,

586
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:43,520
thought the world of him. He was athlete and all that. And we

587
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:47,280
were just stunned. And it turned. You know, April has curly hair. Jake has curly

588
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:52,680
hair. April's a lefty. Jake's a lefty. And she does things that absolutely

589
00:37:53,180 --> 00:37:57,050
remind us of Jake. Our jaws will drop. We'll be like, that's exactly

590
00:37:57,550 --> 00:38:01,170
what Jake would have said. So I. We really feel

591
00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:05,490
like Jake sent us his sister. She was born two years after Jake,

592
00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:09,890
so about a year after he was started to talk about this stuff,

593
00:38:09,970 --> 00:38:13,610
that he had a sister. It was crazy. Wow. Yeah. It's just this. You can't

594
00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:16,850
even explain it right. And when I show you this picture.

595
00:38:17,490 --> 00:38:21,510
Let me find it quick. You'll just. It's some. It's just stunning,

596
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:24,350
the fact that he would draw the picture, and not only just drawing it,

597
00:38:24,850 --> 00:38:28,430
but she is holding Liam's hand in this picture, and she

598
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:32,470
looks like April, and she's smaller than Jake, but bigger than Liam,

599
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:36,150
so she fits in the order perfectly. It's really

600
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:39,830
it's such a beautiful thing, because as bereaved parents,

601
00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:44,150
Jennifer, we honor that not everyone who loses a child

602
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:47,660
gets a child. And it doesn't fill the void of losing

603
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,220
Jake. Nothing ever will. But it makes you have gratitude, and it brought

604
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,580
joy back into our life, and we've saved April's life, and she saved Kelly's life.

605
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,260
So it's this really beautiful. And it's been so seamless that it's

606
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,660
been like she was always meant to be with us. Like, I'm gonna say seamless.

607
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,940
It's uncanny. Wow. How easy and natural it's been.

608
00:39:08,340 --> 00:39:11,660
And if I submitted this script to Hollywood, they would laugh me right out of

609
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,540
the. The state of California. But it gives me

610
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,540
goosebumps talking about it every time. But she is Jake's sister. There's no question in

611
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,780
my mind. He knew exactly what his mother needed and when.

612
00:39:23,580 --> 00:39:27,660
And two lives were saved as a result of it. Wow. And Liam's

613
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,980
doing a lot better. He's very close with April. Like I said, we just visited

614
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,940
her for parents weekend, and she's a beautiful soul, and she's a special young

615
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,180
woman in her own right. She's more driven. She's overcome more than most people have

616
00:39:39,390 --> 00:39:42,190
to endure in their early years as a child.

617
00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:46,190
And just to overcome that and be who she is today is

618
00:39:46,690 --> 00:39:51,470
remarkable. It just speaks to her drive and determination

619
00:39:51,970 --> 00:39:55,470
and passion for life. And she's going to be so successful in life

620
00:39:55,970 --> 00:39:59,070
whatever she chooses to do. I wouldn't be surprised if she was the first

621
00:39:59,570 --> 00:40:03,590
female president one day. She's just an amazing young woman with a supremely

622
00:40:04,090 --> 00:40:07,760
bright future, and we have immense gratitude that she's in

623
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:12,200
our lives. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. I think

624
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:17,720
it just speaks to the fact that human connection is the most important thing

625
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:22,120
we have is each other. You know, we don't do

626
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:26,680
well in isolation, and we are the ones that are able to

627
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,520
show up for and save each other. Well said.

628
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,720
Because that's what people need to do, is show up. People ask me all the

629
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:37,160
time, well, how do you help someone in grief show up?

630
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,880
Don't worry about what you're going to say or not say, because there's nothing.

631
00:40:41,380 --> 00:40:43,440
You can't say the right thing because there is no right thing to say.

632
00:40:43,940 --> 00:40:47,280
Just say you're sorry and show up. And showing up means just being there for

633
00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:50,160
them. You can sit in silence, you can sit in prayer, you can hug them,

634
00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:54,000
you can cry with them, you can mow their lawn, you can grocery shop for

635
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,970
them. Because when people are suffering intense Grief.

636
00:40:58,210 --> 00:41:00,450
They don't want to go out. They don't want to leave their house. They don't

637
00:41:00,950 --> 00:41:04,010
want to shower. They don't eat, they don't cook. They,

638
00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:07,610
you know, the, the mail fills up in their mailbox. They don't even

639
00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:11,730
go out for that. They just feel so disconnected from society

640
00:41:11,810 --> 00:41:14,610
that you need to show up. And that's the, the reality is that we all

641
00:41:15,110 --> 00:41:18,650
feel alone in our circumstances, but we're not alone. Yeah, we're here.

642
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:21,730
That's why we're here. We're here to love each other and to lift each other

643
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:24,750
up and to be there for each other. It's as simple as that. And that's

644
00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:29,030
kind of what I've learned through my, I say new connection with God.

645
00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:32,910
It's just it, it. I've been. Things have been said to me and

646
00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:37,230
shared with me in, in unique and I can't even put words to it.

647
00:41:37,730 --> 00:41:41,070
Ways that this is what life's about. And I

648
00:41:41,570 --> 00:41:45,070
need to help share this message because there is so much

649
00:41:45,570 --> 00:41:50,000
division and hatred and fear based on issues

650
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:54,240
with our world today. And we've

651
00:41:54,740 --> 00:41:58,520
gotten so far away from humanity that we need

652
00:41:59,020 --> 00:42:02,320
to refocus on the simple things and the things that last.

653
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:04,720
I always joke when I, when I give talks. One of, one of the lines

654
00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:07,960
I use is like, when you. When we get to the pearly gates and you

655
00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:12,160
meet St. Peter, he's not going to ask you, hey, how was that corner office?

656
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,720
Didn't you love that huge office with the sofa, the big desk,

657
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:20,470
the views? Or how was that second home in the Keys or Martha's Vineyard?

658
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:23,750
That stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, what he's going to ask you is how many people

659
00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:27,590
did you touch? How many people did you lift up and help?

660
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:31,270
Yeah, 100% agree. I'd actually

661
00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:35,390
love if you would talk about how your relationship with God changed

662
00:42:35,890 --> 00:42:38,990
through this process because I have a

663
00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:43,600
very similar story in that I grew up in. In faith

664
00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:47,520
and have always had a relationship with God. But my,

665
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,840
you know, kind of pivot point in my life just

666
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:56,080
flipped my relationship with God on its head, like completely 180.

667
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,920
And I guess not completely 180, because maybe that's not believing in God at

668
00:43:00,420 --> 00:43:04,080
all, but it just completely changed my view of God and my relationship

669
00:43:04,580 --> 00:43:09,360
with God to what I would say is such a deeper, richer relationship.

670
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:12,400
And I identify with, like, being less religious.

671
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,920
So I would love to hear that process for you because I feel like a

672
00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:21,200
lot of it is either, like, clinging to the religious

673
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,360
or completely losing your faith entirely. And There is

674
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:29,520
other options, right? Yeah. So I was raised Catholic,

675
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:32,960
and faith was just a big part of growing up in our life. And I

676
00:43:33,460 --> 00:43:37,050
appreciate everything that my parents did to instill faith. They also

677
00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:41,450
let us explore our own. So after I left for college and

678
00:43:41,950 --> 00:43:45,290
then I was in law school in New Orleans, and I'm kind of writing

679
00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:48,810
a book about this right now, actually, about how everything,

680
00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:51,970
you know, how my relationship with God changed. And it really came down to.

681
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:55,810
I was sitting in church in New Orleans one day, and the priest, who was

682
00:43:56,310 --> 00:43:59,370
a big guy, he was probably 6, 6, and he would move up and down

683
00:43:59,870 --> 00:44:03,650
the. The aisle, the center aisle, as he gave his sermon, but he would

684
00:44:03,970 --> 00:44:07,410
point with his finger and scream. I mean, bellow,

685
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:11,050
big yell, you killed the Christ. And I just watched everyone in

686
00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:14,970
church just kind of wilt. Shoulders would slump. And I

687
00:44:15,470 --> 00:44:18,290
remember sitting there one day going, this is not the answer. This is not the

688
00:44:18,690 --> 00:44:22,010
Jesus that I believe in. And I

689
00:44:22,510 --> 00:44:25,730
kind of. And also they started to sermonize about things I didn't think they had

690
00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:30,140
business telling us to do or not to do. And I

691
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,020
really just stepped away from the church at that point in time. And I

692
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,780
knew my theory all along was that God, Jesus is within us.

693
00:44:37,940 --> 00:44:41,380
I don't need to go to a church to find him. He.

694
00:44:41,540 --> 00:44:44,820
That's not how Jesus operated. Jesus took it to the people.

695
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,980
You didn't have to go to a cathedral to find Jesus. He found

696
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,990
you. And he's with us wherever we go. We each carry him

697
00:44:53,490 --> 00:44:57,990
inside of us. So that was part of it. And then I

698
00:44:58,490 --> 00:45:01,590
started to read a lot about Buddhism and became really drawn to

699
00:45:02,090 --> 00:45:05,590
that and saw a lot of similarities between the stories of

700
00:45:06,090 --> 00:45:09,870
Jesus and the messages. Was very similar with,

701
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:13,950
you know, treating people with kindness, loving one another,

702
00:45:14,670 --> 00:45:17,070
you know, not hurting somebody,

703
00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:21,780
all the simple concepts. And Jesus also stood up against

704
00:45:21,860 --> 00:45:25,460
the churches, even back in his time, and the institutions

705
00:45:25,620 --> 00:45:29,620
and spoke more about the simple, unconditional love

706
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,740
and faith. And it was more about that than it

707
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:38,340
was about. And today we're seeing politics, right, hijack it. And human institutions have

708
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,140
hijacked Jesus truth for their

709
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,310
own agendas. And that's wrong. We see stuff,

710
00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:49,790
you see from the pulpit. They'll say, love your neighbor and be

711
00:45:50,290 --> 00:45:53,390
kind, but then they're out on the streets doing the exact opposite.

712
00:45:53,950 --> 00:45:58,110
And I'm not even getting into politics, but politics have hijacked

713
00:45:58,610 --> 00:46:02,390
religion. And if you really just winnow it

714
00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:05,710
down and look at the basic core truths that Jesus espoused,

715
00:46:06,110 --> 00:46:10,820
they're simple and they're not complicated. They weren't involved

716
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,580
with any dogma or religion or political side

717
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,340
or persuasion. They were just pure truth. And they were like,

718
00:46:18,420 --> 00:46:21,220
love, be kind, have mercy, forgive,

719
00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:26,140
be humble. Really simple concepts. Do unto others as

720
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,300
if you were the others. And we have strayed so far from that. And I

721
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,340
think we. If we can talk more about that, maybe people can realize

722
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,580
that this is the stuff that matters. We're so consumed with everything that

723
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,380
doesn't matter. Yeah. Chasing the wrong things. And I. I say this

724
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,060
when I talk to a lot of people have literally taken their ladder of life

725
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:49,700
and propped it up against the wrong building and they're climbing. And they're

726
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,459
only going to realize it when it's too late, when they reach the top and

727
00:46:52,959 --> 00:46:55,780
go, oh, this is the wrong place.

728
00:46:56,580 --> 00:47:00,340
Yeah, I just spent all this time getting here. I don't

729
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,940
got a lot of time left. And now what? I got to climb back down

730
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,380
and start over and cross my fingers. I prop it up against the right place

731
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,540
this time. So I really hope that

732
00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:15,020
humanity can refocus and

733
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,180
see how connected we are. We're not that different, but we act like it.

734
00:47:19,340 --> 00:47:21,900
But we're so much more connected than we want to admit.

735
00:47:22,220 --> 00:47:25,860
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, to be honest,

736
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,620
not to plug my own shtick here, but having conversations like

737
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,060
this, when you are addressing people one on one or in small capacity,

738
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,260
you really get to know an individual. And I think that's so important for

739
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,460
remembering our humanity because it's through that that we're able

740
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,620
to see people as people and not as a group of something that

741
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,460
we can decide arbitrarily to love or hate or

742
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,260
be indifferent towards. You know, it's a lot harder to hate somebody when you're sitting

743
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,670
in front of them, talking to them as another human being.

744
00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:02,270
Right. I use this too. I say, I. And this

745
00:48:02,770 --> 00:48:06,150
is how I look at life. I view everyone carrying an invisible backpack. And in

746
00:48:06,650 --> 00:48:09,990
that backpack is their suffering. And if you can learn to look at

747
00:48:10,490 --> 00:48:14,110
people like that, you realize, like, hey, man, they're having a bad day.

748
00:48:14,610 --> 00:48:17,470
And I'll give you an example. I get on the highway, emerging, and some guy

749
00:48:17,970 --> 00:48:21,870
goes to cut me off, right? He won't let me in. And instead of honking

750
00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:24,920
and giving him the bird, getting all riled up in my car,

751
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,640
I say, he must be in a hurry. Maybe he is. Maybe there's

752
00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:33,040
an emergency. I have no idea what's going on in this car. But let's give

753
00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:36,680
people the benefit of the doubt versus move

754
00:48:37,180 --> 00:48:41,280
right to hate. Anger, bitterness, rage. It's like, so it's

755
00:48:41,780 --> 00:48:45,720
not that hard. But if we can look at everyone with their own invisible backpack,

756
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,050
we start to have a lot more empathy. And I do believe empathy is a

757
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:51,930
word. I know that's been debated in the last week or two with hundred percent.

758
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:56,010
Empathy is a word. We're going there and it's a feeling and we need

759
00:48:56,510 --> 00:48:59,810
to have it. And Jesus talked a lot about empathy. You know, he did,

760
00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:03,610
and it's chronicled. And we just

761
00:49:04,110 --> 00:49:07,370
need to have compassion for one another. Yeah. Understand that everyone

762
00:49:07,870 --> 00:49:11,010
is suffering in some way, shape or form. There's different degrees of it, obviously.

763
00:49:11,410 --> 00:49:14,950
Have some patience, have some compassion, have some understanding.

764
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:19,390
Maybe slow down. Yeah. You know, more and more

765
00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:23,510
I just think about the fruit of the spirit. And all of those are

766
00:49:24,010 --> 00:49:27,830
such simple concepts, but they're

767
00:49:28,330 --> 00:49:32,310
so antithetical to how we perceive success in

768
00:49:32,810 --> 00:49:35,950
our lives. Because to live as Jesus or

769
00:49:36,450 --> 00:49:40,270
to live in the footprints or footsteps of Jesus is

770
00:49:40,770 --> 00:49:44,110
to diminish power and hierarchy.

771
00:49:44,190 --> 00:49:47,630
Right. And that's the opposite of what the world tells us we need.

772
00:49:47,790 --> 00:49:50,990
And so, yeah, I think it's important to like,

773
00:49:51,490 --> 00:49:55,310
just keeping those in mind when you're moving through, you know, patience is

774
00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:59,590
big ones. When we struggle, it's when I struggle with. Yeah, but it. You're right.

775
00:50:00,090 --> 00:50:04,110
It is absolutely imperative that we do that in

776
00:50:04,610 --> 00:50:08,160
moving ourselves forward and trying to heal so much of

777
00:50:08,660 --> 00:50:12,520
what has been broken. Yeah. Well said. So I

778
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:16,200
think that another thing that's wonderful about what you're

779
00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:20,240
doing is that you're a man doing it. Talking about

780
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,040
grief, talking about emotions, talking about processing

781
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,960
your grief and emotions. And it sounds like

782
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,320
also talking to other men about it a lot of times

783
00:50:33,820 --> 00:50:38,190
too, being involved in sports. So how

784
00:50:38,690 --> 00:50:42,350
have you found that conversation you had mentioned earlier about

785
00:50:42,510 --> 00:50:45,710
like, not being able to express yourself as.

786
00:50:46,210 --> 00:50:49,350
Or being told not to express yourself. Pull yourself up by bootstraps,

787
00:50:49,850 --> 00:50:53,070
kind of rhetoric that a lot of men are told. And I think,

788
00:50:53,790 --> 00:50:57,550
unfortunately, if we could access this

789
00:50:58,050 --> 00:51:01,190
kind of talk earlier in life and

790
00:51:01,690 --> 00:51:05,230
kind of instill these values earlier in life, it would be helpful for a

791
00:51:05,730 --> 00:51:10,150
lot of men. How have you found that as you were speaking to

792
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:14,070
other men, your message is received? You know,

793
00:51:14,570 --> 00:51:18,110
it's been incredible. And I think that is what

794
00:51:18,610 --> 00:51:22,350
fuels me, is that people probably need to hear it.

795
00:51:22,510 --> 00:51:25,990
And I hope more people talk about it. I'm just doing my little

796
00:51:26,490 --> 00:51:29,890
part is how I view it. Again, harkening back to my vulnerability

797
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:33,770
is my strength, and I'm hopeful that others embrace that.

798
00:51:34,270 --> 00:51:37,650
But I have seen how empowering it is, and we're seeing

799
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:41,570
it more in sports. We're seeing, you know, before, if a quarterback

800
00:51:42,070 --> 00:51:45,890
admitted that he saw someone, a therapist or psychologist,

801
00:51:46,210 --> 00:51:49,490
that they would be knocked down a peg and maybe distrusted.

802
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:53,540
We can't rely on him. He's weak. And. And it's actually the

803
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,620
exact opposite. He's strong. He's admitting that he needs help. We all

804
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,940
need help. That's the reality. And he's getting stronger mentally

805
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,580
as a result of that relationship. And so it's not looked

806
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,660
at as a weakness anymore. And we're seeing more and more athletes step

807
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,500
up for mental awareness and mental health. It's important.

808
00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:17,260
It's a big component of our society. Right. You need to

809
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,690
be physically healthy, and you need to. Need to be mentally healthy, and you need

810
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:24,850
to be emotionally healthy. And so I think when I've been

811
00:52:25,350 --> 00:52:29,730
out there, I recognize that one. There's a lot of guys similar

812
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:33,570
to me that were told not to cry, told get back up on

813
00:52:34,070 --> 00:52:37,130
the horse, you know, ride on. And that certainly is

814
00:52:37,630 --> 00:52:41,170
something that you need to do. But in time, right? It's. There's a

815
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:44,820
process, and with grief, you have to figure out, you know, it's different.

816
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,380
There's. Like you said, there's stages. They don't go in any particular order. They come

817
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,100
and go. In fact, you. You're often bouncing like a pinball from one

818
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,260
back to the other, back to the other. Like, geez, I thought it was past

819
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,700
denial. No, you're still struggling with a little bit, right? I thought it was past

820
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,860
my rage and anger. Well, there's things that are going to come up that are

821
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,020
going to reignite it. And so how do you handle it? For me, I looked

822
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,180
at when I was in year two, and I knew I really had to make

823
00:53:08,980 --> 00:53:12,650
a stronger pivot. The Buddhists say that you have to lean into

824
00:53:13,150 --> 00:53:16,370
the sharp points. So I started to lean in to my own suffering, and I

825
00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:20,290
made adversity my teacher rather than an obstacle. And that was

826
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:24,770
part. And then the Lakota revere the bison for

827
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:28,890
a simple reason. The bison is the only animal that will turn directly into

828
00:53:29,390 --> 00:53:32,530
a storm and move through it, recognizing that

829
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:36,490
it's the shortest pathway. Wow. And I think there's a lesson for humans in that,

830
00:53:36,990 --> 00:53:39,790
is that we look to trouble. Comes up suffering, hardship.

831
00:53:40,510 --> 00:53:43,030
It's the elephant in the room, Right. We try not to talk about it.

832
00:53:43,530 --> 00:53:45,990
We sweep it under the rug if we can. We push it out of the

833
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:49,750
room. We run from it. Oh, I'll just move. No,

834
00:53:50,250 --> 00:53:53,150
guess what? It's gonna. Wherever you are, there you are. There it is. It's gonna

835
00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:57,270
chase you. And grief is a dark shadow. It's gonna follow you everywhere. So if

836
00:53:57,770 --> 00:54:00,910
you don't confront your problems, you're just exacerbating them.

837
00:54:01,230 --> 00:54:05,040
Your suffering intensifies. So you need to share. You need

838
00:54:05,540 --> 00:54:07,800
to be open. You need to say, I need help. It's okay to say I'm

839
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:12,200
not okay. But you need to go right through it. And it's not easy.

840
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:16,120
It takes time. So I always tell people I just literally talked to a father

841
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,880
who lost his son two months ago in a horrific car crash.

842
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,200
And he could barely talk on the phone. But we talked for an hour

843
00:54:24,700 --> 00:54:27,040
and a half. And there was a lot of listening. There's a lot of dead

844
00:54:27,540 --> 00:54:30,730
air. But, you know, I could viscerally feel his pain.

845
00:54:31,230 --> 00:54:35,250
I knew exactly what he was feeling. I was teleported back, which is what happens.

846
00:54:36,130 --> 00:54:39,330
And I was telling him that everything you're feeling,

847
00:54:39,810 --> 00:54:42,610
as bad as it is, as hard as it feels,

848
00:54:43,250 --> 00:54:47,010
it's right where you're supposed to be. And that sucks because

849
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:50,650
you want to. You want to change it. Right. And he can't help his wife.

850
00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:53,850
Kind of like I couldn't help my wife. And that you feel helpless. But the

851
00:54:54,350 --> 00:54:58,300
key is never losing hope. And hope is that light that moves

852
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,940
you towards the bigger light and allows you to find gratitude and find joy

853
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,660
and rediscover things in life that matter.

854
00:55:06,980 --> 00:55:10,500
And you reprioritize. That's what my book does. It. I think it compels

855
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,420
you when you finish reading, compels you to reprioritize

856
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,380
what matters most in your life and put them at the top. Because this

857
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,460
is fleeting. It goes really quickly. We have no idea. None of us get to

858
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,930
predict when we die. Yeah. Or how we die. But you have a choice in

859
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:28,250
how you live. Yeah. So what are you going to do about it? And be

860
00:55:28,750 --> 00:55:32,450
the author of your own story. I love that. Thank you so much. I do

861
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:36,330
have a question I ask everybody at the end of each episode, which is through

862
00:55:36,830 --> 00:55:39,930
the lens of your experience. What does compassion mean to you?

863
00:55:40,490 --> 00:55:44,010
Compassion means stepping up when someone needs you.

864
00:55:44,650 --> 00:55:47,930
They may not be asking directly for it, but it just means showing up.

865
00:55:48,260 --> 00:55:50,500
It means being there for someone, lifting somebody up.

866
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:55,180
Oftentimes it's obvious. Right. You can tell when someone's down

867
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,980
or hurting. You hear about it or you see it and

868
00:55:59,860 --> 00:56:02,900
be there for them. Because one day you're going to need someone there for yourself.

869
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,660
So it's just having an open heart and recognizing that we're all

870
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,660
connected, we're all related and we're all here to love and help each other.

871
00:56:11,540 --> 00:56:15,540
Well said. Thank you so much for again, your candor

872
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,540
and your vulnerability. I I do think it's a strength and I do believe

873
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,780
that it has and will continue to help people. And we will

874
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,820
link to your book, your website, whatever in in our show notes so

875
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,100
people can find you there and grab a copy for themselves. Well, I appreciate it.

876
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,180
And if anyone's ever looking for a speaker, they can find me through the website.

877
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,500
Stephen Panis P a n u s.com and thanks for the time, Jennifer. It was

878
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,500
great to have this conversation with you. Thank you for listening

879
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,430
to the human experience. Everyone has a story and I'd love

880
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to hear yours. So be sure to check out the show notes for more information

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about how to stay in touch, do good, and love.