Episode 100: The Tables Turn - Jennifer Peterkin on Dreams, Travel, and the Power of Legacy

0:00 Welcome to the Human Experience, a podcast about the stories we live out every day and the importance of championing the vulnerability and courage of the storyteller. I'm your host, Jennifer Peterkin, and it was through my own lived story of experiencing domestic violence that this podcast was created. By traveling the globe and interviewing each guest in person, I am convinced now more than ever, that stories have the power to change the world. Thank you for being here. In a world full of noise, to listen with intention is an act of resistance for everyone. That. Yes, in addition to telling my story, I'm definitely gonna sing for everyone. No, that would be.

0:44 This would need to be more than coffee for that time. I don't know. You just throw a splash of bourbon in there. I know I do have some options. Got my mezcal. Yes, you do. I don't drink enough to actually have this entire bar. You know, it's not that you don't drink enough. It's that you probably just need to entertain more. Oh, no. Now we're gonna need a spit guard. I do, actually, and I love to entertain, but my. Not usually in your apartment. We're in my apartment, and it is. It's tiny. When I lived in my house, I loved to entertain. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah. And actually, a friend and I were talking about this recently because I don't have, like. I have a lot of different friends in different groups.

1:32 I don't have a, like, cohesive friend. Group. Group. Yeah. And so it's hard because I love to throw parties. I even did it in a former life. Yes. But I feel it never, like, really comes together because it's all of these different people that really don't know each other. And so there's not a whole lot of incentive to, like, keep getting together. I mean, I. We've met Jen now you have met Jen. You. Do you need to meet Joy. Yep. I'm. So you got a host of friends giving so that. Okay. Like, you're, like, afraid of, like, merging all these groups because we don't know each other, but, like, we know of each other. I'm not afraid of doing it. I am just, like, it's so much work. Yeah. And when people. It's hard. There's, like, this meme that I love that's like, the real miracle of Jesus was him having 12 friends in his 30s. It just feels so real. It's true. It's true. Because I'm like.

2:29 I just feel like, who would. I. Like, who would come at that point? You know, you're a Part you're the social butterfly, though, so I feel like this is, this is not for you. I know you would come. It's not for me. I, I, I'm an extrovert. So I recharge around all the people. Yes. Strangers bring them on. Which I appreciate. Cuz I guess I don't actually know that many people because it's become increasingly clear when my friends are all like. No, I'm gonna stay home. It's very tempting to stay home this time of year, so. Well, yeah, I mean, I think I like texted you that I'm not leaving my house this weekend and I'm very excited about it, so. Yeah. Yeah. But we are supposed to have the storm of the century, so. Well, at least of this year, by. The time this episode airs in a couple of days, we'll know whether or not it was. It happened. That's your. Yep. All right.

3:26 So this is episode 100 of the Human experience. It is. And that's wild. Yep. So I'm actually not gonna lead this episode. My friend Kesh has offered. Well, accepted. She didn't offer. I didn't offer. She accepted when I asked if she would interview me. So I don't know why I'm nervous because I talk about stuff all of the time, but it just feels very. I'm in the other seat now, so. You are, you're on the opposite side. Yeah, I don't know. So I guess you have to take it away. I have to take it away. You know what? We're going to give the people what they want. They've been listening to your voice for 99 episodes and now we get to know a little bit more about Jennifer Peterkin and what brought you to this point where we're at now. Three years in episode 100. So let's talk about the last three years. Like, what has this journey been like for you? What have you learned? What did you expect? What were you surprised by? Oh my gosh. It's been wild. So three years ago in on January 31st, right. There's 31 days. Yeah, I think I said it would be 11pm or midnight or whatever.

4:44 January 31st. I actually told Kesh I have to like, I have to make myself or give myself a deadline. So I put it out there because this podcast has been some iteration of it has been in the works since 2020 and it didn't fully get actually get published until 2023. So clearly I needed a push. So I actually just, you know, gave myself that deadline finally and it was like 11:50 something PM on January 31st. And I had told people that it was the. The launch would be in January at some point. So technically I made my debut on time, but it was cutting it close.

5:32 So I think that I look back at that, and even three years later, I don't think I would have been able to do it any differently in terms of knowing now what I know about podcasting and knowing that I can do it. And it's not, like, as scary as I thought necessarily. It's still putting yourself out there. It's still putting a piece of yourself out there and a piece of your art out there, and that never feels like it's ready to release. Right. And so even though it felt ridiculous at the time, and it kind of still does, and I look back and I laugh at it, if I were meeting another deadline, which I actually kind of am right now, I am still having to push myself to actually put it out there and let go of it enough to put it in the hands of somebody else. So it's weird, but I think it just speaks to how personal any project like this is for somebody. You know, so many people have these passions and they do these podcasts and they work super hard. I've met so many people over the past three years who are just pouring everything that they have into their shows, and no one is doing it as their job.

6:55 No one is making money off of this. You know, if you're not Joe Rogan or Alex Cooper, like, you're not making money off of your podcast. So it has to be something that you care about deeply. And I've been so encouraged by the people that I've met over the past three years who have just inspired me to keep pouring into it and to keep going. People that are way further along than I am, hundreds of episodes into what they're doing, and they're still just, like, showing up week after week. It's incredible. So, yeah, I mean, on one hand it feels like I'm so. I feel so accomplished.

7:39 And on the other hand, and I don't mean this in a bad or negative way towards myself, but it's just. It's not this huge, special thing. Like there are so many people trying to have these conversations, trying to make these connections, and so it gives me hope for what people want out of life and humanity, that there are people working in their free time, not for money, but just because they care about it, to bring people together. Yeah. And you do your podcast in somewhat of a unique way. If people have been paying Attention, you often say where the episodes recorded because you only do your. Your interviews in person. Yeah. And so that's taken you all over the world. Talk about that a little bit. Oh, my gosh.

8:35 That has been genuinely the absolute pleasure of my life. I. I can't overstate how much I love that I made that decision from the very beginning, even though it has made things really stressful sometimes. So it was a very intentional decision because I felt like what I was asking people for was the most vulnerable parts of themselves to actually sit down and open up their hearts and minds and really just get to the nitty gritty of things. And not to shock people or not to make things salacious or more listenable, but just because I think that there is a huge value in humanity and storytelling and there's a intrinsic connection there.

9:30 And so I couldn't pay people to be on the show, and I didn't even know how I would put a value on that. And so my decision was, well, I'm going to meet them in person and sit down with them in person and physically bear witness to their story. And it has made such a difference for me personally. I've gotten a lot of feedback that it's made a difference for the guests as well. But for me personally, which I can actually speak to, it has just been such a joy and so humbling to interact with people in a way that leaves a more permanent mark.

10:12 You know, I send Christmas cards to all of my previous guests and I get some back. And it's really sweet just to know that these people remember you and they remember that the time that you shared and that, again, connection means something. Yeah. Let's talk about some of your travel, because even before you were traveling to do interviews for the podcast, you were a big fan of travel. Yeah. And so what has travel looked like for you? How has it changed over the years? And what do you feel like is so special about being able to see a new place? Yeah, I mean, I do have to say, like, part of the interviewing people in person was a selfish choice. It was an excuse to get on the road and travel. And I'm very fortunate that my job allows me to do.

11:00 Do that. I. I did my first solo travel in my 20s, but then I got married and then I got divorced and became a domestic violence advocate. And, you know, all of these things. And I. I was reestablishing my life, you know, who figuring out who I was post divorce. I'm still in my 20s at that point, and I just felt like, you Know, it was kind of a, A perfect storm in that your 20s are already a time when you're trying to figure hell you are, right? And then I'm in this place where I never thought I'd be, which was divorced and growing up in a community where divorce was never really accepted, and trying to figure out what that meant for me and what that meant for who I was in the world and in my faith and in my family and my community. And so I started kind of rebuilding things in the way that I thought I was supposed to. So, you know, I got my 9 to 5 job settled and I, I bought a house and I got really involved in a church and established community and I was busy. I mean, like, I didn't have a whole lot of time at home twiddling my thumbs, thinking about what am I going to do next. Right? But I was not happy or fulfilled. I mean, I wasn't unhappy, but I wasn't happy. Something was missing. Yeah, something's missing. And, you know, I would

12:33 talk about travel as this thing that would happen in the future or like when I met somebody, you know, I would trap, we would travel together or when my life reached this point, then I would be able to do these things. And I realized that that was never going to happen. Because even if, you know, even if I did meet somebody or even if the things that I thought I was supposed to do did happen, there was no guarantee that it would play out the way that I thought it would, right? So I put my house up for rent. I started renting it out so I could get a bit of an extra income, moved into an apartment that was a lot smaller and started traveling.

13:21 And well, I did, I did this at the end of 2020. So traveling wasn't, wasn't like super. It didn't get, didn't get going right away, but that was the idea, right? You know, I have to decide who I'm going to be right now. And that doesn't change when something or someone enters or exits my life. I have to be able to do it now, right? And it was really terrifying, right? I mean, all of the people around me were either getting married or already married, already had kids or having kids, getting promotions at their job, whatever, like doing all of the things that, you know, you think of the board game of life that like, gets you to the end. And, you know, you win the game, you win, you win. If you do all the right things, right? There is no option to be like solo travel. And then, you know, you end up at the end of the game with no money left. So.

14:19 So I was like, I need to. I. To figure out how I can do what I want to do right now, because if I keep waiting for a day, that day is never going to come. And so I. My first big trip by myself after this, you know, epiphany of mine was actually in the beginning of 2022, I went to Egypt by myself. And this was a trip that I had actually planned twice before with other people, and it fell through. And my mom specifically asked me not to go to Egypt by myself. And then, you know, it was the end of 2021, and I have a friend, actually, that lives in Egypt. He's from Egypt, and he and his family live there. And he has been. He had been asking me to come visit. And, you know, it was the end of 2021, and I told my mom, I said, look, I think I'm going to Egypt alone.

15:22 And she went. I know. Moms always know. Exactly. Okay, she gets it. So I did this trip to Egypt solo. I had my friend give me an itinerary. He. He made sure the whole thing was planned out for me. It was an amazing trip, and I never felt more alive than in those moments. I felt so accomplished and like I had really done something worthwhile for myself. And it wasn't just the travel. The travel itself was wonderful, right. But the ability to go to this place by myself, get myself around, figure, figure things out for myself, it just gave me more confidence than anything else has in my life.

16:22 And so that's when things really kicked into high gear, and I started just going as far as I could, as often as I could. I started spending more time away from home, you know, chunks of time. And so being gone for a couple months at a time, I think the longest I've been away is for four months at a time, which my dog does not like. Fitz is not a fan. Fitz is not a fan. But it has been the single best thing that I have ever done for myself. And even though it's not always been easy and at times has been stressful, I think I have never been able to learn more about the world and myself and people than when I'm traveling. And my worldview has changed so drastically because of it, but in a way that I'm really proud of, because the exposure to other cultures and other people and the way that other. That other people live around the world is such a gift.

17:41 I just think that for multiple reasons, if you have the opportunity to travel and if you are Willing to do it. It's the best thing that you can ever give yourself. The best education internally and externally. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that education? Like, are there specific things that you've learned about yourself and about the world and other cultures as a result of traveling and being immersed in those places? Yeah. The biggest thing I've learned about myself is that I can do it. Like, if I want to do it, I can do it. And I meet so many people who are like, I could never do what you do, or you're so brave or, you know, and I understand the sentiment and I thank them. I'm grateful because I am in a unique position where I'm able to do all of these things and there is a lot of privilege in that. But I also want to tell people, if this is something you want, you can do it too. And you don't have to start by going to Egypt by yourself. You could, you can, it is an option. But you don't have to go that far to be doing good for yourself. Yourself.

19:03 I have gained so much. Confidence isn't a big enough word. Confidence is true, but also like the self sufficiency. You're driving, you're taking trains, you're taking planes, you're having to figure out rent in another country, you're trying to figure out how to map out a road trip across multiple states over the course of a month. There's different things that you learn based on the experiences that you have. But I think internally the best thing is that you realize that you are so capable of whatever you want to do. You don't need anybody else holding your hand to do then makes it much more enjoyable when somebody else that you like to travel with is with you.

19:52 That's an important caveat. Not all friends travel well together. Just. Just putting that out there. That's true. Not all friends are travel friends. But knowing that you don't need anybody to do it with you makes it so that the entire world is then open. Right. Like you don't. Nothing is holding you back except yourself. So coming to that realization and coming to the realization that you have everything you need to make something happen within you, that's amazing. I think as far as worldview and perspective shifts, there is nothing like it. When you leave your bubble to figure out what somebody else's life looks like. And I'm not talking about poverty porn because that is not something I'm necessarily. That I necessarily love. That happens. We shouldn't be coming in as a tourist to a major city and like riding through the slums just to look at the poor people. But when you are in a country in general and you're just interacting with a different group of people, when you're in a different state, when you're in a different environment than you're used to being in, like, it doesn't have to be this cross cultural experience necessarily to realize that people are people all over the world and that there are things that make us similar, that are really beautiful, and there

21:25 are always points of connection, but there are also differences that make it so that we can take a step back and say, hey, maybe my life experience isn't the only one that matters. And maybe things aren't as black and white as I think they are. Yeah. And like you were saying, when you are meeting new people and you're up close and personal with them, you have an opportunity to hear their story, which is what this podcast is all about, is giving a platform for people to share their personal stories, because it's something that no one can argue with, is our own personal experience. So talk a little bit about the power of storytelling. Oh, yeah, I will never shut up about the power of storytelling. That's fine. It's your podcast.

22:14 You can go as long as you want. No, I think that stories have been around for all of time. Right. Like, you know, we talk about cave drawings and the oral tradition and things being passed down from generation to generation. Legends and myths and fairy tales, like, they have survived so many thousands of years because of how powerful they are. And I think there's something innate in us that connects with story. I think stories are human in such a way that they are able to stand the test of time in a way that few other things can. And so we are constantly looking for stories, whether we realize it or not. Right. Everything around us, whether it be, you know, film and movies and books and all of the things we usually think of, but like even gossip magazines and social media influencers, you know, what we connect with are people telling stories.

23:20 Whether or not that's what they say, that's what they're doing. Yeah. And so I think that in a world where there's so much noise coming at us all of the time, I mean, even marketing is storytelling, of course. Right. And so I think subconsciously, there's parts of us that have become suspicious of certain medias and ways of storytelling because it can also be used to manipulate us. Yeah. And so I think it's really important to be intentional about seeking out stories. And you're never going to go wrong when you are seeking out humans, storytelling, and people's real life lived experiences. I think that our experiences are the one thing that we are complete experts in. Right. We are the only people to live our exact sequence of experiences in this space of time. Yeah.

24:27 And so while we may have similarities and things that we have seen and experienced, nobody has lived through exactly what we have lived through. And so I think, again, because there are similarities, there, there's points of connection, but there's enough differences that it's worth us all telling our stories. There's something that everybody can learn from you telling your story. The biggest thing I hear from people is that they don't have a story. And that is something that I disagree with on every fundamental level, because you're alive, so you're alive. You have a story.

25:10 The problem is that we, again, are. Our attention is so sought after that we feel like things have to be so dramatic or unfortunately traumatic for them to be worth telling. And so you have people that are like, well, I wasn't. I was gonna go to a really dark place, but maybe I may, I won't, I wasn't, you know, I didn't marry a prince and, you know, live in a castle and have this, like, really fantastical life. And, you know, I didn't. I'm not Martin Luther King Jr. I didn't make the I have a dream speech.

25:54 I didn't go to jail for my beliefs. And those are great stories, and those stories should be told, but not everybody's story looks like that. And in fact, most of ours, or at least we don't see them like that. We don't see them like that. Yeah. The thing is though, that, and I can say this after six years of experience with intentionally seeking out these stories, is that people don't realize how interesting they are. And people don't think of the things that they've walked through as extraordinary because we all have to cope with our own lives. Right. And so unless you are somebody that you know, I've interviewed somebody on the podcast that had an episode of 48 Hours, right. Like, her story was ridiculous and traumatic.

26:50 And she's amazing, and her. Her story is amazing. She's a survivor, and that's awesome. But I have also interviewed people on here that have never told their story before because I. I had to ask them, would you talk about this on a podcast? And they're kind of like, why? Why do you want me to? I mean, it's so interesting. And so I also interviewed a woman who who talked about her dad. And her dad was a. Was a pilot in World War II and got shot down in France in enemy territory. And, you know, it was occupied. And the French res. He happened to land in their backyard, and they hid him. And they went back to. She and her brother went back after their father died to go see if they could find where he was staying, and they happened to run into the family of the people that hid him, and they still had a piece of his plane. And this woman wasn't, like, shouting this story from the rooftops, because to her, it was just a little story about how her dad was this really great person, but to her, it was. He was still her dad. Yeah. And so that wasn't the basis of her memories. She knew this story, and it was a nice story, and it was really amazing to her, but she really didn't see

28:20 how anybody outside of her family would find value in that story. And so it's really just incredible when you start talking to people and you start digging into their life and the things that they've been through or the things that their family has been through, what will actually come out when people not realizing what a big deal that is. Yeah. I remember listening to both those episodes you just referenced, and I remember just being, you know, jaw dropped, just, wow, goosebumps, the whole thing. And. And like you said, like, they. Especially the woman with the pilot father, like, it was her life and it wasn't.

29:06 She didn't think she had some extraordinary story to tell. But the way that everything lined up and meeting the family, like, we should definitely tag these episodes in the show notes because they're definitely two of my favorite episodes, but I could say that about most of the episodes on the show. So really, just if you haven't hit them all, go back and listen to the previous 99 episod. Yes. But while we're talking about the show and all the episodes that we've had so far, you're actually taking the. Not the podcast, but you're launching a new endeavor in light of the podcast out of the podcast. So let's talk about that, because I personally find this to be very exciting. I'm so excited about this, and actually, it's kind of the perfect segue, because that story with the pilot father, her story was so compelling to me because one of the reasons that I started this podcast was because of two of my grandfathers and their stories. Yeah. By the time I started the podcast, both of them had passed. They were both incredible people. And I hope to Talk about them more in depth in future episodes. But I grew up with them telling their stories to us, to me and my family. And I loved them. I loved their stories.

30:31 And some of them were so repetitive, especially towards the end of their lives. You know, they got a little repetitive with the same stories, but I loved them. And it was like being brought into a totally different world. You know, my one grandfather grew up in South Philly, Italian immigrant family, poor, dirt poor. Started working at 7 years old. Like, his stories were so surreal to me because it was a life I could never imagine. Right. You know, my other grandfather was a Hungarian immigrant and was in Communists, a Communist prison for four years and ended up escaping and escaping to America eventually.

31:14 And, you know, came to America and became a nuclear physicist at the University of Penn, as one does, you know. And so these stories were such a big part of my life in my childhood. And then they. And I felt like I knew them really well, right? And then they both passed, and it was like all of the sudden, their voices were gone. I didn't have the ability to ask any more. And it felt like, on one hand, I felt super fortunate that they both talked about themselves as much as they did and their lives as much as they did. But on the other hand, I felt like, well, that's it. It's over.

32:01 No more stories. No more stories. But not just that. Like, no one else would know about these people if I didn't and my family didn't continue to talk about them. And so. So I look at the two of them, very different people, and I'm like, their lives were incredible. Like, the things that they did were incredible. And even people that knew them didn't know these stories about them necessarily. And so it became this thing where I was like, it's really sad to think that no one else will know these people because they will be lost to time. Right. If you're not in the exact right place and right time in history, you don't get a biography written about you. Right. Or a movie made about your life. And that doesn't mean that your life and your story isn't worthwhile.

32:51 It's just that you, you know, weren't the lucky chosen one. Right. Because there are so many people that have done so many incredible things that we don't know their stories. And I think that's one of the important things I think about, you know, traditions, cultural traditions, where oral storytelling in the vein of myths and legends is so popular as a way to honor the past and tradition and ancestors and I think it's such a beautiful and human thing. So when the woman, her name's sue, by the way, stopped referring to her as a woman, when sue was telling me her story about her father, I just really resonated with that. And so one of the things that has come out of this is that not everybody wants to be on a podcast and have their story publicly broadcast.

33:52 Totally get that. Totally understand that. But it doesn't mean that they don't want their story recorded or that their families don't want their story recorded for posterity. So I'm actually launching a business that was really born out of this idea of the human experience. And so it's called the Human Experience Legacies. And it is a private, curated interview experience where I will come to you in person and we will have a conversation about your life, and that will be turned into an heirloom keepsake for your family and friends and whoever it is that wants to keep that story in posterity. That's so awesome. I love this personally. I've told you, I would love for you to interview both of my parents. They didn't tell a lot of stories about themselves when I was a kid, but now as an adult, I'm hearing the wild tales of their lives. And I love it.

34:52 And I. I love hearing it in their own voice. And that's the thing, I think, that's so key about what you're doing, is they can continue to tell their stories in their own voice, and it's not just being passed down. You get to hear the little, you know, their laugh and their smile and their sadness or whatever their emotion like, as they're telling their story. So how can people sign up for this? Yeah, so I have a website, the hxlegacies.com, which we'll link in the show notes. And there is a Instagram page at the HX Legacies. I'm going to be honest, social media is not really my game. So it's not. Not super active, but you can always get in touch with me there, if that's easy.

35:43 But there's contact information on the website that'll be linked as well. But I think that, once again, we don't realize how much of our lives inspire other people. And so to be able to pass that as a gift to your family for future generations is so incredible. I actually, one of my grandfathers, I interviewed him, this was pre2020, so the. The Human Experience was not called the Human Experience, but it was this, like, germinating idea. Okay. And My one grandfather had passed already and I knew that my other grandfather was coming to the end of his life. And so I made this decision to interview him kind of on a whim.

36:36 And it is not as comprehensive as I would have liked, but I have it. And it was two months before he passed. And I'm so grateful because I do. I have his voice. I have his voice telling his stories and with his inflection and his emotion. And it's a wonderful, beautiful thing. So there's a lot of storytelling like mediums out there, right. You know, like everybody knows about storyworth. There's a lot of things that have come out on are that are similar. The journals and the prompts and stuff like that. And so I no hate to that. I think it's great. Any way that anybody can be storytelling, I think is valuable. So do whatever works for you. What I found is that because even some of them now you can record yourself, they're not just writing ones. The writing. The writing is hard.

37:34 It takes a lot of time. But with both of them, they come in like pieces. Right. It's not a one and done thing. And so it takes a lot of motivation to do it. And so I've spoken to a lot of people that have gifted something like this to a loved one and the loved one just doesn't do it. Right. And again, it just takes a lot of motivation to sit down and actually come up with these stories and really dig into this because it is an emotional labor to do it. Right. Like, not every memory is a happy memory. And even if they are, you know, it is a physical working to actually have these conversations. I will tell you, I usually need a nap after my interview.

38:28 So, Kesh, you're gonna go home and take a nap. Sounds good to. Um. And so again, you know, do whatever works for you. But this is a very intentional and curated thing to say. You know, we're gonna sit down once. Yeah. And I'm gonna stay with you until we've told your story. Yeah. But we're gonna get as much out of this as possible and we're gonna take us where the conversation takes us. And I think that it's such a beautiful thing to be able to sit down with somebody and actually have interaction and conversation. It makes more interactive and it addresses things that you necessarily wouldn't think of to address. You know, you're telling a story and you think that this is the way it goes. But a question pops up and now you are taken down this little bunny trail. But it just Makes it that much more interesting. So. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it.

39:25 I think that it can be really valuable for people. And I know it's something that I personally value, and so I really, really believe in its power. That's awesome. Yeah. It's like you're really asking people to give the gift of themselves. And I know for some people that might be hard to wrap their head around, that someone finds so much value in them and their story that they would want that. But we do. Like you said, we all have a story to tell. They're not all going to be turned into a Hollywood feature film, but there's a lot more stories. I'm realizing from listening to the episodes of the Human Experience over the last three years that there's a lot more stories that of everyday people that are actually really incredible, that really could be told on a larger scale if they chose to or if they had the platform to.

40:22 So, yeah, it's awesome that you are starting the legacies kind of operation and I look forward to how that's gonna go, that venture. Is there anything else that you wanna say before I ask you one final question? Oh, nice. This is what I get when an actual person that listens to the podcast gets to be in charge. I love it. I need to get you some. Some swag now as a. As a host. That's right. That's right. I have a hat. She does have a hat that she had made. I made my own hat. Have hats made as well. So it's awesome. Yeah. I think, you know, the one thing that I think about with this whole journey over the past several years is that it's been a lot of hard work. It's been a lot of tears shed. It's been a lot of, you know, I don't know if I have it in me to keep pushing forward because everything feels like it's too much.

41:28 And not in a bad way, but just in the way that, like, life is busy. Yeah. Life be life in all the time. It doesn't stop. And so I. I guess a year or two ago, I kind of had to. Had to take a step back and look at what I was doing and say, oh, my God. What I wanted, what I had dreamed of has actually happened. Yeah, it's happening. And that was kind of mind blowing to me because I had this idea in my head of what it would feel like when my dreams came true. Right. Like that this is gonna sound crazy, that there would be peace in my life. Right.

42:16 Like when my dreams come True, I'm gonna feel. At least part of me is gonna feel like I've arrived. And when my dreams come true, all of these metrics are going to be hit, right? Like I'm going to hit all of these points. That's not true. And so, like, just because the vision you had in your head about what your dream is, just because that doesn't fully get realized, doesn't mean that your dreams aren't happening and they aren't a reality. So, for instance, you know, the big dream is that the podcast is self sustainable, that I don't have to have another job to be able to do the podcast. Because it cost me a lot of money to do this podcast for multiple reasons, but not least of which is that I travel to everybody I interview. And I have gone to Kenya to interview people.

43:15 I've been, you know, in something like I have to actually count again. But something like it's more than 10 countries that I've interviewed people in, not to mention states. In the States. Yeah. And, you know, it's hotel stays and it's, you know, gas and flights and trains and meals and just, you know, living. And I don't regret a single moment of it. But it's expensive. And then to produce a podcast isn't free. Free. So compared to the travel cost, it's really not that much money. But. But it's not free either. And so, you know, the. The dream starting out is like, yeah, and then it gets discovered and everybody loves it and, you know, it makes all of this money and then I don't have to. I don't have to have another job. Like this could be my job. But that didn't happen yet.

44:07 Yet, sure. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that the rest of it hasn't come true, because the reality is that I have a job that is willing to allow me to work remotely for literally months at a time, and that allows me to be flexible with my hours and my schedule so that I can prioritize travel and interviews. I am able to travel to different places and, you know, monetarily and physically and emotionally, like, I have the ability to get to these places and to do all of these different things. You know, I go to these pla. These countries, these states, whatever, and I'm not just visiting the person there.

44:59 I get to go see a new place. I have somebody that watches my dog for me. That's a whole other story. Fitz could be his own episode. Yes, he could. And so, like, I'm doing everything that I set out to do. It doesn't look exactly like what I thought it would look like, but I'm doing it. You are? Yeah. And I'm not, like, while there's stress involved, because, again, it's life, I'm not struggling to do it. Right. Like. Like, it is a joy. It is an honor and a privilege to be able to do this the way that I'm doing it.

45:41 And so, yeah, I think when I think about dreams, I have to constantly remind myself that just because it doesn't look like what you thought it would look like doesn't mean they haven't come true or that they're not attainable. Yeah. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not happening. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, just because you're not just, like, sitting pretty in the. This, you know, huge house, which is not something I want anyway, but, like, just because you're not in the place. The exact place you thought you would be when all of these things are happening, doesn't negate the fact that they are happening. Right. Yeah. So I think that when we talk about chasing our dreams and we talk about living them out, you know, it is a lot of hard work. It is a lot of intention.

46:29 There's sacrifice involved. Right. Like, I put all of my resources into the podcast and traveling, and I'm happy to do it, but then I don't have other things. I don't do other things. And so there is. There's personal sacrifice involved. There is. There are decisions that you have to make to be able to move forward. You have to be able to prioritize your time. You have to sometimes cry a little bit because things feel so impossible, but you can get there. And so it sounds super cheesy, but I think it is really important to just say, like, there is no one path to making things work. Yeah, that's true. Well, in light of your experience, Jen. Yes.

47:22 What does compassion look like to you? Ooh. You know, I think about all of the people that have answered this question and the similarities and the differences with the answer one, the reason that I started asking this question. Let's. Let's. Let's. Sure. Let's start there. Let me start there. Let's go all the way back. No, the reason I started asking this question is because I realized that after my divorce, I had this vein of empathy, this. Well of empathy that was tapped into because of my experience. Yeah. That I didn't have before. I didn't have access to it. And it wasn't that I couldn't try to have understanding for somebody in a similar situation. But I never would have been able to say, man, I know what that feels like on some level. And so I think it's important to know that we can't have those wells of empathy for everything. Right. Because we don't know what it feels like to do everything. To do everything, to have all of these experiences.

48:40 And one of the reasons that I asked this question to everybody is because I think your experience does inform how you view empathy and what you have access to within compassion and empathy. And I don't mean that you have to have a super traumatic experience to have compassion. I don't believe that at all. But what I will say is that your experiences allow you to be a landing place for somebody else. Your experiences give you the expertise and the authority to welcome somebody in and to care for them. Yeah. And I think for everything else, my personal belief or thing that I am working towards is it's okay. And there is an honor in just letting something sit with you. Right. And so compassion to me is if you have a similar experience, if you have that well, and you'll know if you have it right.

50:04 If you have that well and you can tap into it, let that overflow. Let that overflow into somebody else's up. If you don't have access to that well, just be somebody that is able to absorb whatever you're being told. You don't have to have a response. You don't have to have advice or trying to fix it. You can't fix it. When somebody is in need of compassion, they don't need fixing. They need a soft place to land. And even if you can't access that soft place, what you can do is you can bear witness and you can lament. And I think lamentation is something that we are very uncomfortable with because there is no quick fix for it. There is no end.

50:57 It is a deep sorrow. And, you know, the more that I explore the idea of lament, I think that it is an act of compassion itself. And I also think it's an act of worship when we can sit with somebody and just try to feel this depth of sorrow for their pain and not try to do anything else with it. Yeah. I think that that is how we find connection across suffering.

51:39 Yeah. No, it's beautiful. I definitely agree with you. I do think that being able to lament is a beautiful way, a beautiful form of worship. So I love the way that you put that. Well, Jen, it's been an honor to interview you for your podcast. Thank you. I'm so happy that you did this. Yeah. Kesh is a dear friend and I know she listens, so it's so, it's so amazing to know that, you know, my mom and one other person are listening to the episodes. Yeah, it's my pleasure. And I, I don't listen to many podcasts at all, so that speaks volumes. You made it. But, well, I look forward to the next hundred episodes. I look forward to the next three years and I look forward to the launch of Legacies. So guys, be sure to check that out and take advantage of this really cool opportunity.

52:29 Yeah, once in a lifetime. That's right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the human experience. Everyone has a story and I'd love to hear yours. So be sure to check out the show notes for more information about how to stay in touch, do good and