Artist, Nomad, Advocate: The Losses and Leaps That Shaped Kirsten Dickerson's Life of Service (Part 1)

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Welcome to the Human Experience, a podcast about the

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stories we live out every day and the importance of championing the

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vulnerability and courage of the storyteller. I'm your host,

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Jennifer Peterkin, and it was through my own lived story of experiencing

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domestic violence that this podcast was created. By traveling the

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globe and interviewing each guest in person, I am convinced now

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more than ever, that stories have the power to change the world.

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Thank you for being here. In a world full of noise, to listen

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with intention is an act of resistance.

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Kirsten, hello. Hello. Thank you so much for

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doing this. It's been like two years in the making.

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Yes, you mentioned it to me two years ago when I met you. Yeah,

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no, actually, I met you before that, but when we were in Morocco

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together. Okay. Yes, that's right. That's right. I don't think

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I had launched yet. When we were in Kenya, I was doing interviews, but I

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hadn't launched it yet. So thank you for letting me

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come invade your space, your. Your beautiful home in London, and you

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can sit down and talk about your story. So, as you've alluded

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to or mentioned already, we've traveled together. I've traveled on.

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I've been on three of your trips. I crashed one of them,

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the end of one of them, and then, you know, intentionally signed

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up for two of them and have another one that I'm signed up for for

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next year. You're a groupie. I am a groupie. I'm a Kir

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slashed artist and Nomad groupie. But, yeah, I. I love the

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way that you travel. I love the trips that you lead. I'm. I'm so

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honored to travel with you and to be a part of that,

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but your story is huge. And so I'm just so excited to sit down

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and talk to you a little bit about how you got where you are

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and. And what brought you to this moment in life. Love it.

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Let's do it. Awesome. So usually how I

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start this is if I ask you where your story begins,

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where would you start that? Oh,

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that's such an interesting question. When people ask me where I'm

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from, I just look at them and say, I don't really know how to answer

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that question. Yeah. Because my company's called Artist

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and Nomad for a reason. Yeah,

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My life has been very nomadic. Where I was born

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and my life started was in Texas. I was born in Houston, raised in

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Katy, Texas, when it was still small town,

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cow pastures. And now I think it's like an extension

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of Houston, but when we lived there, the closest grocery Store was

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like a. Almost like a 25 or 30 minute drive from our house. So it

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was quite remote at the time. And I say

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my story started there, even though it's not just because it's like where I'm from,

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but I feel like that's where my

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awareness of God's presence in the world started,

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even though I didn't know how to explain what that was. I have strong memories

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of encountering God's presence all the way back to preschool.

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Oh, wow. And I fell in love with

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nature as a young child. And in elementary

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school, in third grade, I will never forget having to create my coat

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of arms, which I'm like, why do we do that?

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But I remember on the co to arms, you had to put your, you know,

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long term, lifelong goal. And guess what I

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put to travel the world. Did you? I did.

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So I think that's why I said, like my story began in that young era

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that who I am, I was an artist.

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And I took art classes in Katy up to

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second grade. Like second, third grade maybe is when I stopped. Because no

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one was an artist in the suburbs of Houston.

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And so after that, it wasn't something pursued.

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I was told I should pursue being a lawyer or something like

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that. So I didn't pursue my artistic side.

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But I knew I was an artist because I loved painting

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and I loved those art classes. And so. And I always,

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anytime we had like a book report or anything

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would be ridiculous and go away above and

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beyond whatever the assignment was. Because I wanted to create an experience for

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the class to journey with me, which would usually include costumes

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and music and big displays. And I'm not exaggerating.

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This was not the assignment. So this is like why I say my story started.

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My story started when I was young because I don't actually think,

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you know, decades later I'm that much different.

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I think you. I am who I am. And I can just see the influences

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along the way that have helped to shape and point me down a path that

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I kept leaning into and taking next steps in and taking risks in life to

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keep leaning into this love of nature, this exploring of God's

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presence in the world and exploring this world that he's created

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in general. Wow. I love that. And my husband is the one that helped

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me rekindle my creative side. Okay. Yeah. So it's been our marriage of 28 years

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that I rediscovered that I was creative and kind of had put it on hold

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for maybe 20 years before that. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So what

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did you then pursue in terms of what did you think your career

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was going to be after you kind of shoved your art side under.

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Under the table? I know. Well, I grew up in one of those very

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like up middle class, suburban white communities of Texas.

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So I wasn't exposed to very much in

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regards to people or ways of life that were different. And so

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my immediate worldview was quite small,

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yet I had that yearning and desire to see the world.

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So that was there, but I didn't actually even know what. But I would read

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and I would look like, you know, back then, but pre Internet,

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pre any of these things. So it was like going to the library and

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checking out encyclopedias and like, really things like that. So it was kind of nerdy

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in that way. Like, very curious about, you know,

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all those things. And I just feel like when it

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came time to decide to go to college, I picked Baylor University.

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I went and saw it, but it was kind of funny because it's

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a Christian university. I didn't actually know anybody that had

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gone there, but some when I went to go visit it, really. And Waco

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was like, not impressive.

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So this was like in 1990

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that I first visited Waco and I was like, oh, my.

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And I think at that time the part of Waco that I saw was like,

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really not impressive. Waco today is completely different,

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largely due to Baylor growing alongside Chip and

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Joanna Gaines, like, influencing it. But also, also a

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lot of other things have happened. So it's actually become a very influential small city.

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But back in the early days, it was not being drawn to a cute

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college town. But just when I went to Baylor, I felt like God

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was calling me there if I couldn't even explain it. And so I went there

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and what do girls do? Coming from, you know,

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my background, you, you, you. Most of my friends were either

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gonna do accounting or they did social work or

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a teacher. So I, I studied to be a teacher.

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Okay. Which is super funny because I

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went all the way through. And when it came to my student teaching and

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I did my student teaching in Waco at a junior high, I was like,

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oh, no, this is not for me. I. It's a.

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Classroom's too small for me. I felt like that world and just

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having a small. It was not enough. Like, I loved

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teaching and I, I loved like, learning, but it

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felt like way too limiting for me. So I kind of knew before I graduated

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that wasn't what I was going to do. And so I graduated from

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Baylor and the day after I graduated, I got on an airplane and went to

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India and volunteered

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with Mother Teresa for the summer. But. But how

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that came about was actually during my Baylor time, I went

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to Baylor, not really knowing why I was going, and roomed with another friend who's

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now a professor at Baylor. And she was, you know, very studious and

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amazing. She's a tax professor, so she's, like, super uber smart.

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And she and I got along great. We both did the

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sorority life and all of that. I was, like, sorority rush chairman. And then all

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of a sudden, my world changed my junior

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year, so my parents separated when I was at university. My sister

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had been at home when I started university, and when I

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was a freshman, she came to visit me, and she decided she wanted to follow

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me to Baylor when she graduated and came. But when my sister came,

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she had been going through, without going into detail, a really difficult time because she

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was the one that was at home when my parents separated. And my mom did

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not handle that well. And I think my mom's depression impacted

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my sister, and my dad disappearing really impacted her, and it affected her health.

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And so when she came to Baylor, I realized she was coming,

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and it was my responsibility as the big sister to care for her.

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So Baylor became my time of

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figuring out how to hold my family together that had completely fallen apart, and I

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needed to be at a safe place where I was gifted.

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Still my best friends in the world during that time. So my roommate's from

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college and I are still in a text chain, and I've been living in

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Europe four years. I haven't seen them much in four years. But prior

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to living here, we would almost see each other yearly. And there's a group of

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Baylor friends who are all in the same sorority that we'd see each other yearly.

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And I think people stay in touch with college friends. But we had a unique

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connection because when we pledged joining

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a sorority, we all pledged what at the time was like a party

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sorority, a popular party sorority. And somehow we all ended

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up choosing it together and realized when we were there, we were not the

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norm. And somehow we all got in it. And we used that

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as an opportunity just to make a positive impact on that

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sorority at the time. And several of us just

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felt like led to just, I mean, honestly invest and love

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all the women that were involved. And it was really profound.

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The relationships that were built, the friendships that were built, the conversations that happened

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in the lifelong, continued impact that's had on me and

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several people. So I think what was initially just like a social group meant

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so much more for that core group of, like, 12 of us that

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were in that together. And those. Those friendships

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are the ones that also came alongside me and my sister during this, like,

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difficult time. So my Baylor experience, where most people around

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me had a lot of money and could afford to go to Baylor, was when

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my parents divorced. My sister ended up coming. We were dirt

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poor. We had nothing. Our dad had left us, and he disappeared.

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And then all of a sudden, one day, he filed. When he filed the

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official divorce, because they had had joint tax

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returns, all of his debt, which we weren't aware of,

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went on to my mom. And so I went through what I think

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is the start of why I became such an advocate for women.

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Because I saw the impact that that had on my mom and on us with,

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like, no rights, no ability to get out of the situation.

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And we lost our home. We lost everything.

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So while I'm at Baylor, taking care of my sister, trying to

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help her, like, manage this, worried about my mom, who at the time became

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severely depressed, she actually became suicidal. And so there would be times that I'd be

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on the phone with her, praying for her, talking to her,

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helping her hold on to life because she was so sad that my dad had

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left and all this financial burden had fallen on us. And my

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roommates would be sitting there just holding my hand through the whole conversation because

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I didn't know if I'd talk to her again. If I hung up the phone,

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what was she gonna do? It was that dramatic. So it's a very painful time.

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And when the reality of this financial situation

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fell on us, we had to open up our home. We had

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to foreclose on the house that I had grown up in. And we had to

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open up our home and sell everything in it and use what

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money we made from that to keep enough for, like,

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a small apartment. Loaded up a U Haul, attached it

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to my mom's old Cadillac, like a really old

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Cadillac, to the back of this U Haul, and drove it. One summer,

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my junior summer year, from Texas to

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Pennsylvania, I moved in with my Aunt Jackie. Cause we had nowhere to go.

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So in technical terms, I was homeless. We were homeless

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going to Baylor. And when we showed up at my Aunt Jackie,

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she had never had children, but she always welcomed us as like,

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her kids. And so she just said, come move in with me. So we had

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a place to go. We had an Aunt Jackie. And I didn't know if I'd

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ever return to Baylor. I didn't know what was going to happen. I just knew

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life was hard. And long. Long story short, my mom called Baylor

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and said the girls cannot return because it was in the summer. And so what

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had happened? And not shortly after she made that call,

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Baylor called back and said, we have an anonymous donor that will

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scholarship your girls to finish. Wow. And so my sister and I were able

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to. I don't actually understand if it was a loan or a scholarship. It's anonymous.

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I don't actually know. My mom never let, like my mom just dealt with

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it. All I know is that we got to return to Baylor and finish.

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Couldn't afford a sorority. But they were like, come in it, you know, like,

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we'll cover your fees. I had to work three jobs and

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take full time classes. My aunt Jackie helped cover the rent for

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a part of it. I didn't always have food. So I actually learned about food

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insecurity at Baylor. It was like, the whole thing is such an interesting part

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of what formed me. And sometimes when my shelf in our apartment was empty,

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my roommates, I would open it up to figure out what I could eat and

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they would have filled it with something. Wow. And one time we

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were gonna go to a. You know, they called it the fire dance,

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which was like, everybody wore red. And the girls were just asked the boys to

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go to the sorority dance. I didn't go to anything. Cause I couldn't afford to

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do anything like that. I was just trying to finish my college career, take care

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of my sister, support my mom during this and be very responsible,

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obviously. And I remember telling my

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roommates, they were like, why aren't you going? And they were like, you should ask.

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So. And so I was like, you guys, I'm not gonna ask him. But I

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also, I can't afford the dumb dance and the T shirts. You know, I can't

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do that. Plus I don't have a red dress. You know, I was just like

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laughing at them. And then my friend's boyfriend at

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the time, who's now her husband, my roommate Jessica. Her husband Todd was like,

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kirsch, he's from Arkansas. He was like, surely got red dress in that

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closet. I was like, I do not. Todd, he was upstairs with us. And I

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was so irritated. I was like, you guys, I just like, like I feel shame.

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I'm like, you guys are shaming me. I was like, how many times do I

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have to say I can't afford this? Like, it's not going to change. I was

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getting irritated, but he kept pushing. So in all my

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drama, he's like, prove it. Show me your closet. You know, he's like, totally.

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So I opened it up and he had bought me a dress. Oh,

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I know. Sweet Todd. And I just share all that because I

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firsthand experienced the drama of being

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women and having the actions of a man impact you,

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losing your rights and everything you own, having somebody welcome

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you during a time of need to be a bridge, having dear friends

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fill in the gaps that believed in me and were there

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for me and to, to not. To not be so I

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didn't fall through the cracks. And it was. Even those small gestures

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have stayed with me like over these decades because it

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helped me know that that's what women need today all around the world, that there's

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so many women living on the margins who are facing so many struggles,

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coming out of violence, coming, facing poverty, war,

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immigration, discrimination, whatever it might be. And sometimes

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you just need an advocate, someone to be that bridge, to walk

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with you and believe in you and your potential, your God given potential to help

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you get from point A to B so that then you can thrive and be

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all God created you to be. And those were the situations that helped

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me get through like a very challenging season. And if I, I didn't have

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those people I just mentioned, I would be in a completely different place

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today. But getting on the other side of it gave me the courage to live

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very openly, not worry when we

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don't have a lot of finances or things aren't like cushy for me and my

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husband. I married my best friend from Baylor, by the way. And to be able

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for us as a couple to say yes as we have felt led in life,

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to go wherever life God leads you,

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to go and give of what we have to serve,

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it's been the most life giving. We have chosen not to take

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steps that would lead to maybe more wealth, health and success

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in a traditional standard, but more what

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we feel is truly life giving. And thankfully, because I married someone that

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I love to hang out with and love being around, he's my best friend.

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We did not date in college because I thought I was gonna be like

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a missionary, humanitarian worker and he was gonna be a film filmmaker in Hollywood.

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And those two things didn't go together. So we just established we should just be

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best friends and never cross that line. Okay. And when it was, when I was

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returning from that trip to India, he picked me up from the airport at the

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gate, because you could do that back then. And I was,

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I was so sick on the whole plane ride home from India,

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literally throwing up the whole time, borrowing bags, the little bags

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from my neighbors, like it was that kind of a long plane Ride. It was

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terrible. And I had been caught in a monsoon before I boarded the plane,

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so just. Let's just say I wasn't looking good. But somehow

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when he saw me and I saw him, we had butterflies and

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we kind of knew, like, I love you. And we. We got

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married not that long after that, a few months later. Like, we fell hard for

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each other, but we knew each other well. Yeah. And so we've been married 28

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and a half years and have moved 14 times. Wow.

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But every time, it's not because we're fickle or, like,

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saying we're, like, unhappy or just. It's because

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we just always together known. This is where we're

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being called. This is what we're supposed to do, or this is what we need

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to sacrifice in order to say yes to something else. And, you know,

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whatever it might be. Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's amazing. So. But it all intertwines

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in those, like, Baylor days. And so I really still

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think that those early 20s are some of the most formative. Like, my journey

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starts with the childhood, but then it was as formative what I chose to do

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in my college days and who I chose to be friends

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with had such an impact on who I am. But then

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I busted out of the Baylor bubble, because once those people

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invested in me and I saw God provide, I started

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being drawn to wanting, like I said, to see, well,

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how do I give back to others? Because people have been so generous

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with me. And that was the year a couple that lived

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in Waco started church under the bridge in Waco.

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And I just started showing up. There'd be like five of us, five homeless people,

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them and maybe somebody else and me and a few college students. And that

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now is Mission Waco, which is a vibrant ministry that is doing all kinds

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of crazy things with, like, farming and

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cafes and school programs and micro enterprise

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and a village for veterans and so much

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ministry. So it was birthed in the early

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90s when I was there. And the female

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founder of that became a mentor of mine. Wow. And so she had a profound

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impact on me. And it was with that organization.

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I went to India the day after I graduated. They took a group of

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college students to come see the world and experience poverty firsthand.

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And so I toured India with them to learn about just

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the realities of poverty and the struggles of poverty and how to reconcile

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that as a Christian. What is our response? And then my friend Brooke and I

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stayed for the rest of the summer in Calcutta because we didn't have

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a plan. We just went and had a return ticket to stay.

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Like an extra. I want to say we stayed an extra. Like, I don't know,

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month or more. Wow. And we just decided Calcutta

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because after everybody left, we were in Delhi and said goodbye to the group.

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We looked at each other and we're like, where are we supposed to go back

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to now? Like, we didn't have a plan. This is so funny that you would

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do that. Like, no computers, no cell phone. We're like,

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but we had a business card for this one ministry we had picked up in

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Calcutta that worked with street kids and with people coming

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off of drugs and homelessness in Calcutta. And we were really impacted

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by them. They're called the Pavamani family. And we were like, I think we're supposed

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to go back and served with the pub of money. So we called them

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at a pay phone in Delhi. You guys,

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this is so funny when I think about, like, how it rules today versus back

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then. And we're like, hi,

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do you remember us? I'm sure they didn't remember us, but the hospitality

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that I have received is why my husband and I are like, try to have

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an open door policy. They just said, yes, come.

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And the next day we got on a plane back to Calcutta. They picked us

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up from the airport and they took care of us. And we volunteered with their

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ministry which ran like, I taught at like a compassionate international school. And then

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we volunteer with Mother Teresa. We stayed in like the guest housing

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for all the volunteers with Mother Teresa. And that was life changing for

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both of us. It was pretty amazing. But all those experiences kind of

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worked together in a way that formed me. There's more, but maybe I

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should pause. That's amazing.

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I mean, I'm trying to imagine I went to India with you earlier

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this year and everything was completely planned out. I can't imagine.

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Also had my cell phone with me, so if anything were to happen, I had

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a device. I can't imagine just being like, yeah,

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I'm going to stay in India for an extra month. We just only booked a

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return with no plans and no contacts. I mean, it's actually shocking when

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I think about it. Kind of funny now, is this. Is this your

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only extended time in India or have you done more than that?

356
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Well, I've been to India 24 times. I know you've been to India a lot,

357
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but during that. So. Well, what. So during college, actually, what happened

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in the two years is that that summer

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after we got that scholarship, I was able

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to return to Baylor. And later that year I was, you know,

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at the end of my junior year, and I was a part of a student

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ministry and was mentored by the leader of that ministry. And she

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really taught me about the power of prayer. And I learned a lot about prayer

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from her. And they were talking about needing people

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to move to Estonia from Baylor because

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the Iron Curtain fallen a few years earlier. And they had started ministry to

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students in Estonia, and that first year

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had started. They needed somebody to go. And I was like, Estonia Schmonia.

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I didn't even know where Estonia was. I'd never even heard of it. I was

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thinking about a sorority meeting I had. I was like, so not paying attention to

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this meeting. It was like one of those, like, almost like a leadership board meeting.

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I was just, like, looking at my watch, ready to go. And they passed around

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printed photos. Cause we did that back then of the students at Estonia.

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And when they. And I can't even explain it,

375
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but when a photo of these students got to me

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and I was just gonna flip through it, I couldn't stop.

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Like, I. I had to hold onto it. And this overwhelming

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realization that I was supposed to go came over me. This is in April,

379
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and they were looking for somebody to go in September. And again,

380
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remember my financial situation. So I'm just sitting

381
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here thinking, what? Like, do I. What is this nudge?

382
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This, like, burden? This, like, calling this, like, it was like,

383
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overwhelming. Like, I knew. And I knew that I couldn't leave that meeting without

384
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going to that mentor and saying, I think it's me.

385
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And so when I went, you can imagine, she couldn't even process that

386
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I would even say that because we didn't understand. How would it even be possible?

387
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Yeah. And so I just

388
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said yes. But I knew that there would have to be

389
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provision to make that possible. And it meant I would miss a year of school,

390
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wouldn't graduate with my friends, I'd have to leave my sister for a

391
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year, leave my mom for a year, move to Estonia, which I didn't

392
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even know where it was at the time, and then come back and finish.

393
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That doesn't make any sense. Right? Like, that's not a logical thing to do.

394
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But by July, all of the money, which was 20 something

395
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,860
K, had been raised by the parents of my sorority sisters. Oh,

396
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my word. I sent out one letter and people

397
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gave. I can't even explain it. And so I had to say yes.

398
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And I was on a plane the end of August and moved to Estonia.

399
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Wow. It was pretty wild. So I put Baylor on hold, which you could do

400
00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:56,920
And I took a photo of my sister, who was still health

401
00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:59,920
wise, not doing well, but I had a photo of her when she was healthy,

402
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,480
and just put it by my nightstand and just prayed for her every day that

403
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:07,040
she'd be healthy again. And I really felt like I was also supposed to

404
00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:10,500
leave because my sister and my mom had become so dependent on. Upon me to

405
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,220
get through that trauma that we went through. And I knew that

406
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if I left them, then they would have to find the strength in themselves,

407
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and I wasn't gonna be available every day. And it was actually the best thing

408
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,180
for them. So they both largely healed, like, got on the other side

409
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,260
of things that year. Not totally, but, like, headed towards

410
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,660
that. And my roommates that I told you about, they were there for my sister

411
00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:37,180
during that time that I was gone. And when I returned, I roomed

412
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,140
with my sister my last year. So it actually worked out really beautiful.

413
00:26:41,170 --> 00:26:44,530
And that year was an incredible year of

414
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just being in a country that had been closed from the world,

415
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that was open again. And just the,

416
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like, eagerness and the hungerness for young people to

417
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discover the meaning of life and what they wanted to do with our lives because

418
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they now had choices about where they wanted to go, what they wanted to do,

419
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what they wanted to believe. It was utterly fascinating

420
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,560
and challenging because I didn't have answers.

421
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But I sure enjoyed journeying with them, and I'm still in touch with many

422
00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:17,680
of them. Wow. And twice during that year, we had to

423
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go to St. Petersburg once, and then Moscow, I guess, three times, Moscow twice for,

424
00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:25,040
like, group meetings. And it was the former Soviet Union. So everybody that was involved

425
00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:29,240
in student outreach in, from Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan to

426
00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:33,040
Latvia, Lithuania, Russia, Estonia, we all came.

427
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So that's a lot of different cultures coming together, which I loved

428
00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:40,700
feeding that, like, wanting to see the world side of me. And we would

429
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,740
do these conferences. I don't remember one thing about those conferences except

430
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,180
for meeting my other big mentor. So, you know, I've mentioned three mentors, all in

431
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,700
college. The one with the student ministry that taught me about prayer. The one with

432
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,340
Mission Waco that taught me about God's heart for the poor. And then Charmaine.

433
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Charmaine was the leader. She and her husband were, like,

434
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,900
the directors and the leaders of the entire region. And so they would

435
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,510
speak, you know, and she would like to all of us.

436
00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:10,390
And when I would hear her speak, I thought, I'm supposed to speak like that

437
00:28:10,890 --> 00:28:13,590
someday. Like, I remember thinking, like, I want to be like her. She's amazing.

438
00:28:13,670 --> 00:28:16,270
She's maybe eight years older than Me, not that much older than me, but she

439
00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:19,190
seemed like so much more. Maybe she's like five years older than me. She just

440
00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:22,710
seemed like so much further down the line than me. She's like eight years.

441
00:28:23,030 --> 00:28:26,310
But she would always take the intentional

442
00:28:26,810 --> 00:28:30,030
time to say, kirsten, let's have a coffee. And I'm.

443
00:28:30,530 --> 00:28:34,520
That has impacted how I know one on one time matters. Because she would take

444
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,120
an hour or two out of her time at the conference to sit with me

445
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,320
and she would just speak into my life. And things that

446
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:46,880
she said in my little 20 something early 20s impacted

447
00:28:47,380 --> 00:28:50,600
the direction my life went. And those just few rare things.

448
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,360
We would be sitting in meetings and she'd pass me a note with just like

449
00:28:53,860 --> 00:28:56,920
a little message that was on her heart. And it would be things that I

450
00:28:57,420 --> 00:29:00,840
can refer back to sparked like I knew that was something I was supposed to

451
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:05,280
say yes to in my life. So she was majorly influential

452
00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:09,000
by just speaking into my life, believing in me, and showing

453
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,960
me that you can do big things as a woman and be in a big

454
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:16,680
leadership position and live in different parts of the world doing it and all

455
00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:20,080
of that. Didn't see her, you know, 20 years later,

456
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,360
I'm living in Austin, Texas, walking in

457
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,280
to a conference and I hear this, Kirsten.

458
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:31,750
And I turn around and it was Charmaine. Hadn't seen her in 20 years.

459
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:35,670
Wow. And I just said Charmaine, you know, just like processing

460
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:39,830
this person. So I did not attend the conference. I just

461
00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:43,590
sat with her for the whole day and we caught up on life.

462
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:47,710
And what was so fun is that now we were peers. We both

463
00:29:48,210 --> 00:29:51,310
have two kids the same age. And long story short,

464
00:29:51,810 --> 00:29:54,670
she and her husband have become like very good friends of me and my husband.

465
00:29:55,060 --> 00:29:58,460
And they have come to visit us when we lived in Portugal. We have gone

466
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,660
to visit them in California several times. And God, like has kept some

467
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,660
of those relationships in my life like that. So she taught me about seeing

468
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,779
the world and believing big things, saying, taking risks. One taught me about prayer

469
00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:14,300
when talking about God's heart for the poor. And all of that was in my

470
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,580
early 20s and forms, like who I am today. Wow.

471
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,820
Isn't that interesting? You've known me a little bit, but I wanted to share that.

472
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,060
Cause I thought it'd be interesting for you to hear. When you asked me like,

473
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,370
where my story started, I think it was there because I

474
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:32,490
don't know that. I just keep building off of what I started learning

475
00:30:32,990 --> 00:30:35,970
and seeing and identifying with. I learned about St.

476
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:39,970
Francis when I was in college, when I was with Mission Waco. We watched

477
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:44,410
Brother Son, Sister Moons, Frank Zeffirelli's movie from the 70s, which is like the most

478
00:30:44,570 --> 00:30:48,090
70s movie you've ever saw, but it's on St. Francis.

479
00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:52,170
And I fell in love with this idea of what

480
00:30:52,670 --> 00:30:56,490
it could look like to follow Jesus, the way of Francis, because Francis identified

481
00:30:56,990 --> 00:31:00,010
with God through creation and through the marginalized,

482
00:31:00,510 --> 00:31:04,210
and he was an artist. All made sense to me. Yeah. But it

483
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:06,930
was Catholic, so I didn't really, you know, I didn't think anything of it.

484
00:31:07,249 --> 00:31:10,890
Well, just to fast forward, I'm. I'm basically a Franciscan

485
00:31:11,390 --> 00:31:15,170
in the Anglican Church now. I'm in the third order. I'm actually a postulate

486
00:31:15,670 --> 00:31:19,330
to be noviced, hopefully in the next few months. But. But it's become part of

487
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:22,650
my spiritual formation and. But it started there. So when you ask that,

488
00:31:23,150 --> 00:31:26,050
it's very layered, confusing, perhaps, but all intertwined.

489
00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:30,370
And the moral of the story is you just. If you're open

490
00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:34,489
and looking and paying attention to where you are at

491
00:31:34,989 --> 00:31:38,690
the moment, I do absolutely think that there are things being revealed to you

492
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:42,930
every day through people and circumstances in creation where

493
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:46,930
it's, you know, God, higher power, whatever you want to call it, directing your

494
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:50,600
path and leading you. And. And it's up to you if you say yes to

495
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:54,000
that and lean into that. But when you do, then the world becomes this,

496
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,800
like, magical, wonderful place, no matter what challenges come your way, because you can

497
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:01,880
see this bigger force guiding your path and caring

498
00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:06,000
for you and caring for others. And, I don't

499
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:10,200
know, it's made life, like, amazing. And my husband and I both follow

500
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,050
that kind of path and that way of thinking together, which has given

501
00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:19,250
us a really strong marriage as well. I love that. I just think it's really

502
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:23,130
special too, because I think a lot of us feel like what

503
00:32:23,630 --> 00:32:27,570
we learn in our late teens, early 20s is kind

504
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:32,010
of, for lack of a better way of saying this throwaway

505
00:32:32,510 --> 00:32:36,130
stuff. It's, you know, the stuff that you, like, learn through and grow through,

506
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:40,250
but it's not a time you necessarily return to because it's

507
00:32:40,750 --> 00:32:44,530
not your necessarily smartest era of life.

508
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:49,750
And so it's kind of, you know, they're experiences, but they're not the experiences.

509
00:32:50,250 --> 00:32:53,670
And I think it's really interesting to talk

510
00:32:54,170 --> 00:32:58,550
about your biggest experiences or the things that have shaped

511
00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:02,309
you most happening then, because it built upon each

512
00:33:02,809 --> 00:33:06,270
other, you know. And that's not to say that other things haven't happened that have

513
00:33:06,770 --> 00:33:10,310
been extremely important in your life, but you can draw back

514
00:33:10,810 --> 00:33:14,270
to those experiences in college, in your early

515
00:33:14,770 --> 00:33:17,940
20s. So, yeah, I think it's really great to know that it doesn't

516
00:33:18,330 --> 00:33:22,010
have to be. There is no perfect time. There is

517
00:33:22,510 --> 00:33:25,850
no rhyme or reason. It's just when you're paying attention.

518
00:33:26,090 --> 00:33:29,810
You know, when God brings things into your life, that's. Those are

519
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:34,129
the moments. I absolutely agree. I think what

520
00:33:34,629 --> 00:33:38,650
I have found is that being a Westerner, we have

521
00:33:39,050 --> 00:33:43,610
so much stuff and so much busyness and

522
00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:47,690
so much striving that we aren't able to slow down enough

523
00:33:48,250 --> 00:33:51,770
to experience that presence.

524
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:55,890
You know my saying, noticing leads to wonder and wonder

525
00:33:56,390 --> 00:33:59,290
leads to gratitude. Yes. And I really do believe that's true.

526
00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:03,570
But it requires stopping, Slowing down so that you can pay attention

527
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:07,530
and notice. When I even do that for myself, if I'm stressed,

528
00:34:08,030 --> 00:34:11,650
if I even give myself permission to slow down and pay attention

529
00:34:12,150 --> 00:34:15,300
and notice and name what is bothering me. It is like the first step

530
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,380
in releasing that if I don't do that, it just

531
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,180
gets deeper and harder. So there's. It's a part of. Like living

532
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,140
in the moment, in the presence of God in the moment. You have that gift

533
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,020
of life today. You have that gift of the people before you, seeing everyone as

534
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,380
beloved and important that you encounter that every encounter is

535
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,220
an opportunity to show kindness and blessing. No matter if you agree with

536
00:34:39,720 --> 00:34:42,779
that person or know that person or whatever it might be, they have value.

537
00:34:43,579 --> 00:34:47,459
And to see the connectedness we have to

538
00:34:47,959 --> 00:34:50,859
this creation all around us and all the stories and the ways that we can

539
00:34:51,359 --> 00:34:56,059
learn so much about life and renewal and redemption and regeneration

540
00:34:56,139 --> 00:34:59,339
and all the things are all around us every single day.

541
00:34:59,419 --> 00:35:02,779
It's just so much magic and wonder that we miss because we're so busy.

542
00:35:02,939 --> 00:35:05,699
And that's what I try to do with my retreats and my tours, is invite

543
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:10,070
people to have their world opened up again. And we do it through travel,

544
00:35:10,570 --> 00:35:13,950
by going to another culture, we're spending time in nature. But really my

545
00:35:14,450 --> 00:35:17,830
overarching desire is. It's a gift that. An invitation to just be present

546
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:21,870
during this time that you said yes to coming with me on a journey for

547
00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:24,990
whatever it might be for you, but to not worry about what you left or

548
00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:28,710
where you're going after, but to be fully present and allow the experiences to

549
00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:32,390
hold you and shape you and open you. Yeah, it is.

550
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:35,340
It is transformative to be sure, if you allow it to be.

551
00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:38,690
Be absolutely. If you don't get sick like you did,

552
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:45,290
that took you out of it for a little bit. It did. But you know

553
00:35:45,790 --> 00:35:49,490
what? It was still transformative for sure. Maybe in ways

554
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:52,930
I wasn't expecting. But this is the lesson Jen learned.

555
00:35:53,330 --> 00:35:57,090
Don't eat raw vegetables. She was warned those

556
00:35:57,590 --> 00:36:00,530
that didn't listen to the warning all got food poisoning. So if you ever go

557
00:36:01,030 --> 00:36:03,890
to India, no matter how good and tempted you are to eat that salad or

558
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:07,930
raw vegetables, please don't. Yeah, please, please don't. I am the cautionary

559
00:36:08,430 --> 00:36:11,810
tale. So what happens?

560
00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:15,730
You get back from India, Will you finish college? Yeah,

561
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:20,250
moved in with my sister. Yep. Well, so I got back from Estonia,

562
00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:23,690
moved in with my sister for a year, finished college, went to India. Yeah.

563
00:36:24,190 --> 00:36:27,530
Came back and I started interning with that inner city mission.

564
00:36:28,030 --> 00:36:32,170
Mission Waco. Okay. But that didn't last long. Okay. Because Brandon, I fell hard

565
00:36:33,350 --> 00:36:36,510
and he bought me a one way ticket to California. He was starting his

566
00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:40,230
music video career. Okay. And we got married in California a few months later.

567
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:43,870
And how long were you in California before we got married? No,

568
00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:48,390
no, no. Together. Let's see. We lived in. We started off

569
00:36:48,890 --> 00:36:52,830
in, like Berkeley, California and Oakland, California for the first five years

570
00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:56,470
of our marriage. And then we ended up as his film

571
00:36:56,970 --> 00:36:59,910
career took off with mostly music videos and commercials.

572
00:36:59,990 --> 00:37:03,110
I did a lot of the art direction for him in wardrobe in his early

573
00:37:03,610 --> 00:37:06,940
days, which was super fun. We ended up moving to Los

574
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,140
Angeles because he signed with a film company that

575
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,180
wanted to represent him. And we lived in LA for nine years.

576
00:37:15,980 --> 00:37:19,460
And la, we lived in Silver Lake at the early days of Silver Lake,

577
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,500
kind of becoming what it is today. And then we lived in

578
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,940
Hollywood, accidentally planted a church. That's a whole

579
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,220
nother story. And he. He had accidentally became a pastor of

580
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:35,730
that church and had to step back of directing for a couple years. Oh,

581
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:40,290
wow. It was a wild season. So we moved into Hollywood, on into

582
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:44,930
one of the first renovated condos on

583
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:47,930
the Walk of Fame in the heart of Hollywood. Oh, wow. Right across from the

584
00:37:48,430 --> 00:37:52,010
Arc White theater, which is now closed since COVID but it's like a famous

585
00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:55,410
theater. And we were right above the

586
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:59,330
Michael Jackson star. And we had Snoop

587
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:03,300
Dogg above us. Whenever he was recording at a studio nearby, we always knew he

588
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,380
was there because he had some big bodyguards hanging

589
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,260
out in that garage. We go to our car, we're like, snoop's here tonight.

590
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:15,100
And then below us was Nicole, the homeless woman.

591
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:18,300
So we had two kids. We were the only family in this apartment

592
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,140
unit on the Walk of Fame with Snoop Dogg above and Nicole below. And I

593
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,420
think the most amazing part of that journey was having the kids there

594
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:31,340
and figuring out how are we gonna do life as a family? We would

595
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,320
walk just the corner the church was planted and moved around a

596
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:39,560
few different spaces and then landed at that time at the Pacific Theater, which was

597
00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:43,160
on Hollywood Boulevard in the part of Hollywood that had not been renovated. So it's

598
00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:45,480
a little rough around the edges, literally, when you walk out of the church.

599
00:38:45,980 --> 00:38:48,520
The store across the street was called Temptations. Okay,

600
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,120
ironically, but. And when

601
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,840
we were giving communion at the church, it was mostly like

602
00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:03,430
80% young people who were artists

603
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:07,350
or in the film industry trying to find their way, but there were also

604
00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:11,030
homeless and famous that came. So you could be giving communion to a homeless

605
00:39:11,530 --> 00:39:15,390
person, and then it could be Zooey Deschanel or

606
00:39:15,890 --> 00:39:18,950
Ryan Gosling, and then a bunch of, like, starving artists in between.

607
00:39:19,510 --> 00:39:23,070
So it was reaching both the famous and the unknown in a very

608
00:39:23,570 --> 00:39:26,590
interesting way, just because it was like the first kind of,

609
00:39:27,090 --> 00:39:29,840
I guess, church like that. There's a whole bunch now in la, but at the

610
00:39:30,340 --> 00:39:33,280
time it was like the first, and we didn't have any idea what we were

611
00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:36,840
doing. We just started gathering. It was like an accident, which is another story.

612
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:40,360
But during that time with the kids there, it was super interesting

613
00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:44,200
to figure out, like, what does life look like in the middle of Hollywood?

614
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,600
Which is not cool to say, you're a Christian and

615
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,240
why are people coming? Like, where are they coming from and what's happening? And how

616
00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:57,520
did. We called Brandon the reluctant pastor? Because we were like, he so did

617
00:39:58,020 --> 00:40:00,300
not sign up for this. And he was like, like, this is suicide for my

618
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,300
film career. What is happening? And he's like, I don't want to be your effing

619
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,940
pastor. And he would tell people, and they were like, that's why we want you

620
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,260
to be our pastor. I mean, it was like the funniest season of our lives.

621
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,580
So we finally said, okay, fine. And we ended up

622
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,580
embracing it. I will never forget, though, when we were with kids, when they would

623
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,380
go to night, they would ask a lot about Nicole, who was sleeping in this

624
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,970
white lawn chair below us. Every night we were in,

625
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:29,850
like, the second, like, a floor up so they could see her. And before they

626
00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:34,330
would go to bed, we would pray for her every night. And eventually

627
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:37,570
they wanted to meet her. And so we took our little Chihuahua and we would

628
00:40:38,070 --> 00:40:40,330
go down there from time to time and say hi to her. That's how we

629
00:40:40,830 --> 00:40:43,850
knew her name. She was, like 65. She used to be a nurse. And it

630
00:40:44,350 --> 00:40:47,130
just made me think of my mom, who was a nurse and, like, not quite

631
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:50,970
that old, but like five years younger than her, and how somehow she had

632
00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:54,500
fallen through the cracks. You Know, And I told you that story and was like,

633
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,380
somehow she did, and she's ended up. And she was waiting for someone every night

634
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,940
to come pick her up. So some mental wellness had kicked in. But she had

635
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,100
had a career, she had had a family, and somehow ended

636
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,580
up on her own. And was the reason she sat in that white lawn chair

637
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,660
under the light at the corner of Sunset and Vine is because she felt safe.

638
00:41:12,820 --> 00:41:16,500
And so she slept upright at 65 in that white lawn chair every night.

639
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:20,900
So eventually, because of the kids, she grew to

640
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,740
trust us. She didn't trust people. And none of the homeless outreaches had ever been

641
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,020
able to work to help her. But because of the kids

642
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,660
and us, they were able to help connect her. And she eventually got into housing.

643
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,900
Oh, wow. Isn't that amazing? That is amazing. But I think it was formative on

644
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,020
my kids because I feel like it was them praying for her, them initiating

645
00:41:41,180 --> 00:41:44,660
meeting her, and then her relationship with them that

646
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,360
eventually led to being able to connect her where she would trust the service that

647
00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:52,240
we invited to come meet her in and help her get off the streets.

648
00:41:52,740 --> 00:41:55,880
Isn't that wild? That's amazing. I know. And then when the kids would be walking

649
00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:59,920
to the elevator, be like, mom, somebody's cooking broccoli again. Because there was a whole

650
00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:03,800
lot of pot smoking going on all around us. And at the time,

651
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:08,200
it was not legal. And we were like, yeah, people like broccoli

652
00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:12,320
a lot. It was

653
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:16,640
really funny. I know. It was such a season. It was like a reality

654
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:20,960
TV show all around us. Pretty funny, huh? Yeah. But we

655
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:25,720
moved from there to Texas because when my husband eventually

656
00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:29,760
felt like, you know, he had helped to start that church and

657
00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:32,800
it was time to step back into film, and he didn't really know why and

658
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:35,760
what that meant. And so we just handed over the reins to the next person.

659
00:42:36,260 --> 00:42:39,160
So again, not cause he had a job or had any idea, but we just

660
00:42:39,660 --> 00:42:43,440
knew, like, we just know together when it's time. And so after

661
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:47,510
four years, he did. He also was like, Hollywood is

662
00:42:48,010 --> 00:42:51,910
a dangerous place to become a popular pastor because it becomes

663
00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:56,270
celebrity. Everything's celebrity. And he so knew that wasn't right. He actually,

664
00:42:56,430 --> 00:42:59,950
you know, that's actually why we like the Anglican Church, because usually there's

665
00:43:00,450 --> 00:43:03,430
a lot. It's like, not about some charismatic figure. Yeah. It has more to do

666
00:43:03,930 --> 00:43:07,190
with the history and the liturgy and things like that. But you can imagine church

667
00:43:07,690 --> 00:43:10,590
in Hollywood. Yeah. So. And it was trendy.

668
00:43:11,230 --> 00:43:14,330
So he knew it to was time. Time to step down. That's amazing. Actually,

669
00:43:14,970 --> 00:43:18,410
I Think so too. I'm proud of him for that. It was hard because people

670
00:43:18,910 --> 00:43:21,050
didn't want him to, but he knew it was the right thing to do.

671
00:43:21,370 --> 00:43:24,010
And it was hard when you don't necessarily know what you're going to do.

672
00:43:24,510 --> 00:43:27,410
And that wasn't the best career move, if you're in film, to be a pastor

673
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:32,450
of a church for a few years. Sure. So when he stepped

674
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:36,450
out, we were kind of waiting and wondering what was next.

675
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:40,710
And we thought we probably shouldn't stay in la because wherever, if we

676
00:43:41,210 --> 00:43:43,870
go to church, it's not gonna empower the next. The same place we need to

677
00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:47,270
take a break so that we empower the person that would be leading it.

678
00:43:47,770 --> 00:43:50,270
So we probably need to move just outside la, because we go somewhere else,

679
00:43:50,770 --> 00:43:54,910
everybody will follow us. So it's like being aware of that too and being sensitive

680
00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:58,670
to the health and the, you know, growth of that small, cute community of

681
00:43:59,170 --> 00:44:02,270
artists there and homeless and all the people. And so

682
00:44:02,770 --> 00:44:05,150
we were like thinking, maybe we should move to San Diego. We have a lot

683
00:44:05,650 --> 00:44:07,610
of friends down in San Diego. Cause my husband done a lot of music videos.

684
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,000
So, like good friends. Especially at the time, Nickel Creek and

685
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:15,760
Switchfoot, there were some good friends. And Brandon's mentor was down there.

686
00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:19,920
And we thought, we have so many people we love down in San Diego,

687
00:44:20,420 --> 00:44:23,520
maybe we should move there. And so we were going down to look at homes

688
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,840
and then we could still stay in touch with.

689
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,840
And that day we got a call that my mom was in the

690
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:33,560
hospital and my sister just said,

691
00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:36,560
you need to come, Something's really wrong with her. So I just got on a

692
00:44:37,060 --> 00:44:39,510
plane, I just left. And he said, I'll go to San Diego and leave,

693
00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:42,380
look and let you know. So he went to go look at the homes and

694
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,300
I went to Waco. She was living in Waco at the time.

695
00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:48,700
It's not where we're from, but this is where she had been at the time.

696
00:44:50,220 --> 00:44:53,220
And I showed up and when I got to the hospital, they let me know

697
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,580
that they had done tests and she had stage four cancer. And it had been

698
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,620
estasized in her bones. And she only had a few months left to

699
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,700
live. They didn't really know how long. And she wasn't going to do chemo or

700
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,980
anything. And they had to remove one of her kidneys and do a lot of

701
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,080
operations because she had some pretty massive, massive tumors. And so

702
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,960
it just was like this, you know,

703
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,320
huge, like, oh my gosh. But because my

704
00:45:18,820 --> 00:45:21,800
husband had stepped down and we were in a place of wondering and Waiting.

705
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,960
This was why. This is why. He, on his way back from San

706
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:30,280
Diego, heard an audible voice tell him, you need

707
00:45:30,780 --> 00:45:34,400
to move to Texas. And so his phone had died.

708
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:37,280
I hadn't been able to get ahold of him all day. And when he got

709
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:41,140
to his dad's house, he called me and he said,

710
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,500
babe, I don't know what's going on, but I think we're supposed to move to

711
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,500
Texas. And I just broke down crying and I said, my mom has stage four

712
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,740
cancer. He just knew. And he knew I would never ask him to

713
00:45:50,820 --> 00:45:54,100
leave LA to cause

714
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,620
he was gonna relaunch his film career to move to Waco, Texas.

715
00:45:58,020 --> 00:46:01,540
Again, this is prefixer upper. My husband at the time would call it pre Fu.

716
00:46:04,180 --> 00:46:07,300
So it was not a cool place to go back to.

717
00:46:07,940 --> 00:46:11,360
Like, total, total, like being a of a church and the movie

718
00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:15,520
to Waco is not the best way to relaunch your film career.

719
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,600
And so I was like, what? And he's like, I, I,

720
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,320
I heard, I know, I can't explain

721
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:27,440
it. He's like, I knew on my way back, after looking at the houses,

722
00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:29,600
this is not what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be in Waco.

723
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,840
I didn't, you know, and it's just like clear. So I never came back.

724
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,940
In 10 days, he and all the people at the church. Church packed

725
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,260
up our home, stuck it in a storage thing that was shipped to a unit,

726
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,020
and he joined me. He drove down with our car and our bird and our

727
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,180
Chihuahua all the way from California to Waco. And we moved into the house

728
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,180
with my mom, with the kids, and we took care of her until

729
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,140
she passed away. It was pretty crazy, right? Yeah.

730
00:46:58,460 --> 00:47:00,940
So it was just like one of those seasons. And while he was there,

731
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,900
what was Brandon gonna do with his sweet self in Waco, Texas? Well, he called

732
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,020
up one of his musician friends that he knew. And his musician

733
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,660
friend was friends with the theater professor at Baylor. And they would meet at this

734
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,020
coffee shop and just for fun, started writing a screenplay. Because our

735
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,180
musician friend was friend. We were friends. We had all gone to Baylor together.

736
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,940
His name's Wes Cunningham, and he and Emily were some of our good friends in

737
00:47:24,260 --> 00:47:27,420
la. And he got really frustrated at the record industry when it was

738
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,510
changing and just very abruptly. He had some albums and

739
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:34,710
had had some success, but then had some bad.

740
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:38,790
Like a lot of our musician friends went through this. Like, just the industry changed

741
00:47:39,290 --> 00:47:41,750
so fast. And so he just like, I'm done. And they just up and left

742
00:47:42,250 --> 00:47:45,350
within a matter of a week. From LA and moved to Waco. Wow.

743
00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:48,590
And so he knew him. And so when he showed up,

744
00:47:49,090 --> 00:47:51,590
he was like, wes, help me. What am I doing here? And so Wes was

745
00:47:52,090 --> 00:47:55,830
like, I have all these songs that I never, never recorded.

746
00:47:56,070 --> 00:47:59,270
And they were songs of, like, hope and songs of kind of despair.

747
00:47:59,350 --> 00:48:02,380
And so they wrote a screenplay just for fun,

748
00:48:02,940 --> 00:48:05,980
based on his songs, the theater, him and Wes,

749
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:10,780
that ended up becoming the first feature film that my husband got funded by wealthy

750
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,620
people in Waco. Wow. Isn't that wild? It's amazing.

751
00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:18,540
I know. So I think it's so interesting. You just never know why.

752
00:48:19,180 --> 00:48:23,300
What also happened, which was interesting, is that a

753
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,460
year before I had left, I had started an ethical fashion company called Raven and

754
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,100
Lily. And it was born out of a group of volunteer designers at that church

755
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,320
that we had started in Hollyw. And it had started off as a nonprofit,

756
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,720
and during that time, it was a nonprofit. We had a tiny little storefront we

757
00:48:39,220 --> 00:48:42,640
shared in Echo park with my friend Erin Ballard, who has an

758
00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:46,560
awesome frame store still there in Echo Park. And it

759
00:48:47,060 --> 00:48:50,480
was. The idea was empowering women through design. And so we didn't know what the

760
00:48:50,980 --> 00:48:54,640
heck we were doing, but we felt like there was some way. Through the kind

761
00:48:55,140 --> 00:48:58,280
of justice work we had been doing as a church with marginalized women, we saw

762
00:48:58,780 --> 00:49:02,220
the trend of. Of investing in women. You already know that's

763
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,260
a big part of my heart. And so I was leading trips to go

764
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,580
and spend time with organizations that I thought were doing incredible work among the

765
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,860
poor. And that was. I would bring people from Hollywood with me a lot to,

766
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,180
like, places like India and Kenya and other places.

767
00:49:17,260 --> 00:49:20,820
And it was on these trips that

768
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,620
there was this trend emerging where in Ethiopia and Kenya,

769
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,680
Burundi in India, ministries and nonprofits were

770
00:49:29,180 --> 00:49:33,080
focusing on training women and empowering women because they saw if you empower

771
00:49:33,580 --> 00:49:36,520
a woman, she will reinvest it back in her family, community. So many more,

772
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,080
so much more than men. The statistics for sub

773
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:44,120
Saharan Africa are that 90% is invested back in, compared to like,

774
00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:48,640
35% on average, of men. So it makes. That makes a difference. Yes. If that's

775
00:49:49,140 --> 00:49:51,960
happening and you invest in women, then that can change the trajectory for a whole

776
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:55,760
country over time, especially whole communities and families. And so

777
00:49:56,260 --> 00:49:59,500
a lot of people were realizing this, you know, like this. It was during a

778
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,500
time where half the sky book had come out, like, so there's just a lot

779
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,700
of, like, awareness that women's empowerment makes a difference.

780
00:50:06,420 --> 00:50:10,660
And a lot of the groups that we were visiting specifically were

781
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,820
training women in design related skills. So because we were in Hollywood,

782
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,180
we had so many creatives and so many designers. I was like,

783
00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:22,260
I gotta connect my friends back in LA to

784
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,580
use their, like, design background, their graphic skills, their jewelry making, their whatever

785
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,230
they're doing, doing with all these groups. So when I went back and would be

786
00:50:30,730 --> 00:50:33,990
like, so and so could you volunteer? Like, everybody said, yes,

787
00:50:34,070 --> 00:50:36,630
but you have to help connect it.

788
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:40,070
And so over that happening again and again,

789
00:50:40,570 --> 00:50:44,110
I realized I was supposed to start something where I became the bridge

790
00:50:44,610 --> 00:50:47,870
between these two worlds and created Raven and

791
00:50:48,370 --> 00:50:51,870
Lily, which became an ethical fashion company. One of the first using

792
00:50:52,370 --> 00:50:56,260
that term, because that was not even a term. Yep. In 2008 and I

793
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,700
think had started being used in London by the Ethical Fashion Forum. Had started.

794
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,580
It's now changed names, but nobody knew what I was talking about.

795
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,620
Yeah. And so we just said we were like fair trade and but wanting

796
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,060
to do more modern design and didn't know what we were doing. So we had

797
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,900
launched it and it was like taking off. Like, we were all learning a lot

798
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,980
and like had some designs that were doing really well. But it was a nonprofit

799
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,000
kind of like R and D stage, like figuring it out. And when I moved

800
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:27,120
to Waco, I was like, now what? And so everything just

801
00:51:27,620 --> 00:51:31,000
sort of went on hold. And I took care of my mom and volunteers,

802
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,160
you know, the designers, they just sort of ran it as volunteers.

803
00:51:35,660 --> 00:51:38,680
But it wasn't growing. Nothing was happening because we were in this transition. And I.

804
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,120
When my mom passed away, Bran and I decided we should stay in Texas

805
00:51:43,620 --> 00:51:47,070
and move to Austin. And when we moved to Austin, they sent all the.

806
00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:50,460
The Raven and Lily merch to me. And I just stuck it in my garage.

807
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,900
And I was like, I don't know what I want to do with this.

808
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:56,700
It was something I was really excited about, but I was mourning the death of

809
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,660
my mom. And it took me a while. Took me like a good eight,

810
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,300
nine months after that. Close to a year. And then I

811
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,460
realized I did want to continue it, but I wanted to move it into a

812
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,340
for profit social business model. But during the time when

813
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,960
I was in Waco, there were people that would hear about what I had done

814
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:19,600
and the little bit of stock that I had with me in Waco, they would

815
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,280
come shop it. Okay. And it was one of those ladies that wanted to shop

816
00:52:23,780 --> 00:52:26,480
the stock that I had and like, wanted me to, like, order some things with

817
00:52:26,980 --> 00:52:30,320
the artisans I was working with. Invited me over for dinner one

818
00:52:30,820 --> 00:52:33,640
night with my husband so that I could share with her girls who were home

819
00:52:34,140 --> 00:52:37,400
from college. And granted, I was taking care of my mom, who was dying of

820
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:41,120
cancer. So I rarely left the house. My world had become very small during that

821
00:52:41,620 --> 00:52:44,960
time before we moved to Austin. And when we were at the dinner table,

822
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,560
I was sharing about Raven and Lily and all of this. And then the husband

823
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,120
was like, so, Brandon, what do you do? And when Brandon said,

824
00:52:52,620 --> 00:52:55,960
well, this is what I have done. I'm sort of on hold right now.

825
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:59,400
He's like, well, you have any movie ideas now? And Brandon's like, actually, I just

826
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:02,520
wrote a screenplay. And he's like, well, why aren't you making it to a movie?

827
00:53:03,020 --> 00:53:05,520
What do you need money? And Brandon was like, yeah.

828
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,990
And he was like, like, I can get you that. Within a few weeks,

829
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:14,550
they had raised the money. So this is what we. This was like,

830
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:19,350
reality. Like, it's an over a saturate oversaturation of competition

831
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:23,190
in Hollywood, and especially if you're independent, small budget.

832
00:53:23,509 --> 00:53:27,270
But once we got out of Hollywood and we're in Texas, this, like, world of

833
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:31,510
people that wanted to invest in movies opened up. So my husband's done four feature

834
00:53:32,010 --> 00:53:35,840
films, all funded out of Texas since then. And we're now he's producing my

835
00:53:36,340 --> 00:53:39,880
first directorial debut, which is a documentary on artisans. Yay. But that

836
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:44,080
all happened in Waco. And then when we moved to Austin is when I decided

837
00:53:44,580 --> 00:53:47,600
that I was ready after that pause to launch it. And it became like a

838
00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:51,640
more official, ethical, fashion, social business. One of the first B corps,

839
00:53:52,140 --> 00:53:55,400
the first B corp based in Texas that was both certified and registered.

840
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,680
And I felt like Whole Foods

841
00:53:59,180 --> 00:54:02,120
came out of Austin. And when I was there, part of my motivation to doing

842
00:54:02,620 --> 00:54:05,870
this was that there was. Was this, like, ethos in the air

843
00:54:06,830 --> 00:54:10,430
with this impact that this organic food movement had had

844
00:54:10,930 --> 00:54:15,910
happened. And I thought there's room in this city for other imaginations

845
00:54:16,410 --> 00:54:19,350
of what something ethical could be. So I feel like a for profit model of

846
00:54:19,850 --> 00:54:23,350
this because I really only knew of, like, 10,000 villages at the time,

847
00:54:23,850 --> 00:54:26,550
which is a nonprofit. So I was like, what if it's for profit and we

848
00:54:27,050 --> 00:54:30,560
do something that's like, mainstream and, like, shares the

849
00:54:31,060 --> 00:54:34,640
story of these incredible women and brings beautiful things that, you know,

850
00:54:35,140 --> 00:54:39,240
empower and not exploit people. So it was

851
00:54:39,740 --> 00:54:42,920
also one of the first social businesses based in Austin.

852
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,400
And I say that lightly. Cause I don't. I can't claim that officially,

853
00:54:47,900 --> 00:54:51,080
but I can say that I was a part of the first conversation about ethical

854
00:54:51,580 --> 00:54:55,040
fashion at south by Southwest. Wow. It was the same year Reformation

855
00:54:55,540 --> 00:54:58,620
had started. And so there were two core conversations happening. One was with them and

856
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,580
one was with me. And then the next year was the first panel

857
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,780
on ethical fashion. And a few years later, it's a whole division on social business

858
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,580
and ethical fashion. Wow. And I don't know we know what it is now,

859
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,700
but I can say during that time something was happening. And now there are

860
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:17,460
massive incubators for social businesses based in Austin.

861
00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:21,100
Isn't that amazing? That is. So it was really fun to be. I like being

862
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,860
on the front end of things and imagining what can be when there's

863
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,910
like limited resources and like boundaries like that,

864
00:55:29,230 --> 00:55:32,390
oh, you can't do that. People saying like, oh, that's never been done. You can't

865
00:55:32,890 --> 00:55:36,590
do. But honestly, like the. This has never been done. So it could be

866
00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:40,830
anything. That's like where I thrive. And so I.

867
00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:44,270
When I start getting like little ideas of what can be,

868
00:55:44,430 --> 00:55:48,110
it just starts to take off. And so that was how that was birthed.

869
00:55:48,610 --> 00:55:52,350
And I was CEO of that company for 10 years. And we worked with

870
00:55:52,850 --> 00:55:57,480
17 different artists and communities, I think in nine countries and was

871
00:55:57,980 --> 00:56:01,320
in every major top tier thing you could think

872
00:56:01,820 --> 00:56:05,560
about because it was something new and it was really exciting and I think

873
00:56:06,060 --> 00:56:09,000
it, like, helped. I think it's fun to share, like, even for you to share

874
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:13,080
stories, because sometimes when you just share what you're doing, it sparks ideas and

875
00:56:13,580 --> 00:56:17,080
seeing things differently and other people that maybe then start something that

876
00:56:17,580 --> 00:56:20,800
was inspired by somebody. All artists are inspired by each other and other artists.

877
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,880
So. But that was actually like the beginning of that kind of

878
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,400
movement when this movie called True Cost

879
00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:30,920
came out. I don't know if you heard of this documentary. It's a documentary on

880
00:56:31,420 --> 00:56:34,880
ethical fashion that came out like in, I wanna say, 2015 or something. Okay.

881
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,560
It's still relevant to watch today. But when they went on tour,

882
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:42,160
the director came and we hosted a screening at the Alma Drafthouse

883
00:56:42,660 --> 00:56:46,080
together. And I feel like that documentary coupled with my company,

884
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:49,480
as well as Noonday Collection, which is another company in Austin that started at

885
00:56:49,980 --> 00:56:53,650
the same time, really like, was the beginning of

886
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:57,290
something that's happened all over the country. I know, isn't it fun?

887
00:56:57,530 --> 00:57:00,130
It was already happening in Europe. We were just a little slower in the state.

888
00:57:00,630 --> 00:57:03,810
So, like, all my examples were based here in London. So we were

889
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:08,010
like connecting to things in London. And then like now it's like more equal.

890
00:57:08,510 --> 00:57:11,610
But at the time, yeah, definitely Europe was ahead of,

891
00:57:12,110 --> 00:57:15,490
of everything in the US and we were like catching up. But that was.

892
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:19,530
That was sort of my art, my love of art, my love of women and.

893
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,200
And, you know, all those Things kind of coming together during that little season.

894
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,320
So cool. Well, I've heard

895
00:57:27,820 --> 00:57:31,520
so much about Raven and Lily, like, in passing, the being on trips with

896
00:57:32,020 --> 00:57:35,240
you and stuff. And people are like, oh, I knew her from Raven and Lily

897
00:57:35,740 --> 00:57:38,800
days. And so I knew what Raven and Lily was. But to hear about its

898
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,240
formation and how things came about and how it started

899
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:47,240
and then restarted is really cool. Cool. Most people don't know about

900
00:57:47,740 --> 00:57:51,160
that restart. And actually Jessica from noon day Collection, which is kind of known.

901
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,880
It was during that time of in between, she bought all that stuff sitting

902
00:57:55,380 --> 00:57:58,280
in my garage. Oh, wow. That was part of how she started Noonday Collection.

903
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,480
That's amazing. I know. So cool. It's funny.

904
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,960
It is funny. Yeah. Life is funny. You've got so many,

905
00:58:05,460 --> 00:58:08,520
like, touch points of, like, the world seems so small,

906
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,360
you know, when you're. I absolutely think the world seems small.

907
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,240
And every time we live somewhere and, like, our lives reconnect with people we haven't

908
00:58:16,740 --> 00:58:19,100
seen in 20 or 30 years. Brad and I are just so amazed we've had

909
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,380
so many people stay with us here in London when we lived in Portugal that

910
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,300
we hadn't seen from, like, those college days or, like,

911
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,900
our early 20s that would come across the world to come see us

912
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,060
or stay with us was shocking, but also kind of fun to see,

913
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,940
like, how life. You just never know. And if you can just say yes,

914
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,580
you never know. Like, how, like, people will continue to be intertwined

915
00:58:40,820 --> 00:58:43,940
into your path. Absolutely. Keep saying yes, for sure.

916
00:58:44,420 --> 00:58:46,550
Thank you for listening to the human experience.

917
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:50,910
Everyone has a story, and I'd love to hear yours, so be

918
00:58:51,410 --> 00:58:54,270
sure to check out the show notes for more information about how to stay in

919
00:58:54,770 --> 00:58:56,550
touch, do good, and love well.