Sometimes the Dragon Wins: Natasha J. Layton on Surviving a Cult, Five Suicides, and Herself

0:00 Welcome to the Human Experience, a podcast about the stories we live out every day and the importance of championing the vulnerability and courage of the storyteller. I'm your host, Jennifer Peterkin, and it was through my own lived story of experiencing domestic violence that this podcast was created. By traveling the globe and interviewing each guest in person, I am convinced now more than ever, that stories have the power to change the world. Thank you for being here. In a world full of noise, to listen with intention is an act of resistance. Natasha, thank you so much for sitting down with me and for, well, hosting me in your home to do this interview. It's so lovely to finally meet you in person. Have a mutual friend that introduced us, and I'm so glad that she did, and I'm really excited to hear your story. I know that you've been through things that most people could never even imagine, but I. I'm so thankful that you are willing to tell your story to help people and to help people know that they're not alone. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It's. It's always a pleasure to come on a new podcast and. And connect with a new audience. You know, I'm still very new to this. This world, I would say, and sharing my story. It's been. Yeah, just six months since I went public with my story for the first time, and my world has changed dramatically in good ways.

1:33 And I'm very grateful that me sharing my story has helped people. I never imagined what a tremendous amount of healing that would bring to me to share my story and to have people connect with me in that way. I receive messages pretty regularly from people just letting me know, hey, I. I heard your story. I. It resonated with me. Thank you so much for having the courage to share that. And it really. I read every single message that comes through. So just know that. That, like, there's not a team of people behind a small little podcast like this. Like, it is generally a one or a two man band and woman band, I should say. Yes. So I'm very, very grateful to be here and. And just know that even though you feel like you're alone in this world, there is always somebody out there that loves you and that appreciates you.

2:28 And most of the time, the ones that have had the biggest profound impact from you sharing your story usually don't say anything. Yeah. So for every one person that I know that I get a message from, I know that there could be dozens, if not a hundred people out there. And so I just know that it's an honor to do this. It's not easy. I will say that it's not easy to relive the past, the horrible experiences. It does take a toll. I've actually had to cut back on the number of podcast appearances because it drains me emotionally. But I know that if I can help one person, that's good enough for me, and that's why I continue to do it. I actually had somebody reach out to me. I've known him since I was a kid, and he was like, why are you talking about this?

3:21 It happened such a long. Why do you feel the need to do that? And I'm like, I tried to explain to him, you know, this what I'm talking about. You know, if I can help one person feel less alone or if it can help one person, you know, be reflected in my story or whatever it is. And he just couldn't. He couldn't grasp it. He very much is of the mindset that, you know, it's in the past, it can stay in the past. Talking about, it's not gonna do any good. Let's just bury it. And so I just. I had to. And that conversation because I could. I was getting frustrated. Yeah. Because he can't. He doesn't understand the power of what story can.

4:01 Storytelling can do for others. So with that, I guess I'll just start with where I come from. Yeah, please do. I mean, I. I really want you to lead this and. And kind of. I know that you are getting more practice telling your story. You've done it. First of all, when you said six months, I was like, it's only been six months. I feel like I've been talking to you for longer than that. But, yeah, that's actually pretty incredible. I'm, like, hearing the timeframe. I'm not realizing how much you've done in such a short amount of time. And it is really incredible. So I just want to give you kudos for that because it is hard. It's incredibly difficult.

4:45 And I think to your point about what the person you know, from childhood was talking about, to me, that speaks to unprocessed trauma. You know, whenever I hear somebody say, we're not going to talk about that, it's in the past, that's a red flag for me at this point. Right. Like, talking about the past doesn't mean you're living in the past. And so just because you're talking about your lived experiences doesn't mean that you're still wallowing in them. Or living in that place. But it is, I think that's actually a sign of healing, to be able to talk about your past experiences and to talk about them from a place of wholeness and from, you know, I lived through this and it's, it's always going to be a part of me. I can never forget that that exists. And I'm not going to because I earned those stripes. Right. Like I earned the, the right to talk about my own story.

5:49 And so anybody that says that you shouldn't talk about it, and it's a, it's a common line brought up for a myriad of different things. Don't talk about that. It's in the past. We don't need to revisit it. Yeah, you do. It helps people, it helps you. There are ways that you have to take care of yourself as you do it, as you walk through it. And I will say, not everybody is made for a platform like this. That's okay. But if you have the capacity to do it, yes, do it. Absolutely. So with that, yes, please, Natasha, give us your story. Where does that start for you? Well, I was raised in the fundamentalist lds.

6:32 Well, so it's called Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. It was, we didn't realize it was a cult. Growing up, it was just a religion. It's a breakoff from the mainstream Mormon church. So I grew up in Salt Lake County, Utah in a family of. I had three mothers growing up and my grandfather ruling Jeffs was the prophet of our church at the time. So I was born in the mid-80s and he took over from the previous prophet kind of like, I guess you would say he usurped the throne. Feels appropriate, right? Right, yeah. Became the self proclaimed prophet. And there was actually a large split that happened in the church in the late 70s. And you find that a lot. I've looked back in our history from when Mormonism started in the mid-1800s when Joseph Smith founded it. And then, you know, there's always a fight for power amongst the men and there's generally splits happen. So there's very, you know, there's always these little sects that happen here and there because one man wants power or a group of men wants power. And.

7:36 And so that is very much the case. And so my reality was that we grow up on a compound at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon in Sandy, Utah. And so there was, you know, our big schoolhouse church house that was formerly my grandfather's house. He moved out of that house and into a house next door that was built for his family. And then on the compound, there was like four or five other houses that were my house and my uncle's houses. Obviously. My grandfather had 65 children. He's fathered 65 children with 13 wives, I believe it was. I mean, but you can google Roland Jeffs and most infamously, his son Warren Jeffs, who took over the church in the 90s as my grandfather was getting in his old age and becoming very feeble and was running the show from behind the scenes. And Warren eventually took over in 2002 when Grandfather died. There's also been rumors that Warren was slowly poisoning his father. And then Warren ultimately did take over and just was like, I'm your new prophet.

8:44 And the amount of brainwashing that occurred so is actually starts from a very young age. So we went to the church that was actually run by Warren, or, excuse me, the school that was run by Warren, which was two houses down from mine. And he did what was called morning class. And it was basically like every single weekday we went in, we listened to him preach. He eventually started teaching from his own, I would say book, I can't remember what it was called, but he eventually wrote his own book and started teaching from that. We were instructed to read from the Book of Mormon every single night. And do. I never did. I have never read the Bible from. I've never read the Book of Mormon. I just, I just did what I had to do to get by. Granted, I was only in that school through fifth grade, but, you know, my reality was every day getting up, going to school, and then coming home to what I realize now was a very toxic environment.

9:45 My dad was assigned to his wife Susan. He was on leave from the Vietnam War. He had been drafted. And on the way home from the airport, he was instructed from his parents that he was getting married in three days. Oh, yeah. To a woman he had never met. And in that time, you didn't say no. And because he just was like, okay. Three days later he was married. And they immediately started having children. And they had. She had six, I think she had five children in like six years. Wow. Yeah. And then my mother, who is the second wife, Sherry, she and Susan are full blooded sisters. Oh, wow. Yes. Which is very common from where I'm from for sisters to marry the same man. In fact, multiple sisters have married the same man.

10:41 Very, very common. And so, and I've asked my mom this so many times because her and Susan never got along. I was like, why on earth did you marry the same man as your sister? That you hated. And she says, well, I fell in love with your dad. I really did. So I will say that, that she actually had asked to be placed with him when she was 18 and her father told her, no, you know, you're too young. I will say that about my grandfather. Wayman is he did not like his daughters to get married too young. And so he made her wait till she was about almost 21. And then she did get married. And it was very, very tumultuous. You know, my mom was vivacious and very beautiful. And Susan was more subdued, quiet. I think she was still beautiful. She wasn't quite as beautiful as my mom, but I think she was incredibly intimidated. And then to see Watch your. So I have to look at it from a perspective and that I.

11:37 From, you know, that perspective of watching your husband fall in love, truly, truly fall in love with your younger sister. Yeah. How hard would that be? Now, I'm not condoning any of Susan's behavior. She did some pretty awful things to my mom when she was newly married. But I still have to look at it from that perspective, and that would be incredibly hard. And, you know, Susan and dad did eventually, obviously grow to love each other, but it was never the level of love that my mom and dad had. And so I did have a really good example of what true love looked like. But because of that toxicity that was immediately prevalent from when my mom married my dad and then, you know, in was it the early 80s? So my mom married him in 1978, I believe. And then five years later, my dad was then assigned a 16 year old girl that he was told to marry. By who?

12:33 His father. Oh, wow. Yeah. His father said, there's a young girl that has been asked to be placed with your family and I want you to marry her. And again, my dad, you just, you don't say no. And we later found out years later that she had been severely abused by her father and her brothers. So she brought with her a tremendous amount of trauma. And she was incredibly abusive to the children. And she was immediately put in charge of. I don't know, it was like 10 kids. The moms would rotate who would take, who would be on kids each day they would work, you know, cleaning houses or doing whatever. And she was left at home with a number, you know, with all the children. And who at that age is emotionally equipped to handle that? I mean, and that happens, you know, where the older children are taking care of the younger children.

13:31 And you don't have the level of maturity that is required to Be a good caretaker. They're your younger siblings. And so things are missed. My first experience and one of my very first memories is Martha is the third wife's name for my nap time, you know, two, three years old, she would put gobs of lotion on my hands and then on the door handle and then lock the door, and I was left there kicking and screaming and then fall asleep at the base of the door every day. And so that experience happening day after day after day for years, has instilled in me a very big sense of, like, fight or flight when I feel trapped.

14:19 Like, I have a very visceral response, and it's all I can do to get out. And I actually. I remember driving somewhere with my mom. I was about 13. And I recounted this story to her, and she had no idea. She was like, oh, my God, it makes sense. I was like, what are you talking about? She says, when you were little, and after, I'd give you a bath and I would put lotion on your hands, you would cry and say, no, Mama, I get stuck. Yeah. And so by then, Martha had already left the family. She left the family when I was about 8, and she took her three daughters with her. As in, like, did she leave the church or. No, she. She left the family, and my grandfather reassigned her to another man. Okay. And we tried to have visits with. She had been claiming that she was abused and that there had been some sexual abuse with one of her daughters. Now, here's the interesting part.

15:17 I was in when she left the family, and she. Cps Child Protective Services was called, and they came to interview myself and Jerush, who was from my mom, my older sister, by two years. So I was 8, and she was 10. And CPS came and interviewed us and asked us, has anybody ever touched you inappropriately within your home or anybody ever touched your privates or anything like that? And I responded honestly, no. Well, when I was 14, I began having flashbacks of being sexually abused by my elder brother, Marcus. Yeah. Oh, my God. So I was.

15:57 The first time the flashback happened. I was on the phone with him. He was my teenage crush at the time. And we were just talking and having fun, and all of a sudden I got really quiet, and he's like, are you there? And I said, yeah. And he's like, what's wrong? And it's like, I just had this flash in my head. I was like, I think my older brother may have, like, sexually abused me. And he's like, what? We were. I was 14, he was 15, and he was very sweet and he let me talk about it for a minute and he's like, Natasha, you've got to tell somebody. You know, the amount of grace that he showed was incredible for a 15 year old boy.

16:40 And by then we had left the church and I was in public school. So, you know, he was aware of my past but you know, we were kind of living a normal life, quote unquote. But still, you know, a boy from the mainstream world knowing what to say, but he said the right things and he was very kind and I just went on with my life, you know, didn't tell anybody. Sorry. So when I tell my story, it's very hard because I have to jump around how things are explained. You are good. Yeah, good. Because of things tie in. My, my story is very complex so I want to preface that again. So Martha left the family when I was eight. And then in 1997 we were excommunicated from the church because we, my older siblings had left the church and then became what were called apostates. And you're not supposed to have any communication with them. And my family were all very close. And so, you know, my siblings, we still had regular interaction with them even though they had left the church.

17:40 They would come over every Sunday for dinner, family dinner. Well, our niece, my oldest brother Clayne's daughter had died at six months old. She died of sids. So we were trying to come together as a family to try and heal from that. And we were having a barbecue and Warren's spies, Warren Jeffs, you can look him up. They were driving by our home and watching and we had my, you know, Clayne had left the church and his girlfriend was a gentile from without the church, you know, smoking and drinking and all the things. Also my dad had a rule that if you smoked cigarettes, which a number of my siblings did, you had to smoke out on the street. You couldn't smoke on his property.

18:22 Whatever. Yep, again. So Warren and his spies were driving by and seeing a whole group of people out on the street smoking cigarettes. Very, very evil. Ruh roh. Yeah. My dad had a meeting with his father the following Monday for his monthly tithing meeting to turn in his tithing. And my grandfather says to him, I understand you've been harboring apostates in your home. And my dad said, well, if you mean my children, yes, I have. And he, you know, explained to him, you know, it was my grandfather's great granddaughter that had died, which he didn't come to the funeral or anything. And my grandfather Said, well, you can choose your church or your children. And my dad chose his children. And that was absolutely unheard of.

19:03 So we were the first family that Warren, again, this was all Warren behind the scenes, in grandfather's ear, get him out of here. Because Warren knew my dad posed a threat because my dad was a free thinker. Also my mom, my mom was very much a free thinker. And by, by this time, by the mid-90s, my mom had stopped going to church for years. Oh, wow. She didn't believe any of the bullshit. And so my dad was. Grandfather said to my dad, as far as I'm concerned, you've lost your priesthood. And my dad got up and left and we lost our entire community. We lived next door to our grand. Our cousins. They were our best friends. And from that day on, they could never speak to us again. Wow. Yeah. So your mom, I'm sure, obviously was fine with that. Not losing community, but leaving.

19:50 What about Susan? She had considered leaving and being reassigned to another man. She was very self righteous and very pious and she had considered being reassigned and staying in the church. I don't know what changed her mind. I know that she had five boys that she was still raising that were underage, five or six. And I don't know what changed her mind, but she did stay with my dad and we all left the church together. We stayed there in our home. We tried to sell it. It was a white elephant polygamous house. There were so many additions, which is very common where as the family grows, you just put an addition on. It was a white elephant. My dad built it and it was beautifully built, but it was a white elephant. And actually it had been turned into a duplex, I believe in 1995, because the mothers were fighting so bad. Ah. So it's so interesting to talk about because this is nothing that I've ever experienced. But it's also interesting because Mormonism, especially flds, has become so prevalent in pop culture. And so, like, people do know who Warren Jeffs is. And you know, you have the, the sister wives show that has. There's like four different sister wife shows. And, and so all of these things that there's like a little glimpse of the quote unquote salaciousness of it, but it's not the same as obviously

21:23 living through the real thing and having people in community that you're invested in and involved with and being separated from them. And how many siblings do you have? And where are you in the. There's 20 of us all together. I am the 13th child of the 20. And my mother had six children. I am her fourth. Okay. 13 was my grandfather's lucky number. Oh, wow. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. 13 isn't always a bad luck number. No, it's not. So you were very much, based on what you've said thus far, like, don't really care about the church aspect of it. I'm sure community was a huge deal. Where were your other siblings or other members of your family at in terms of how big of a deal excommunication was from a religious standpoint?

22:17 So the vast majority of my older siblings had already walked away from the church. So in 1997, I was 12, just turned 12. And the only of my two siblings that were still, like, devout was Marcus, who was the one that abused me and Brenda. So Brenda had already been married, and so she, you know, basically, when we were excommunicated, wrote us off. Marcus had not yet been married, and so because he was still very devout in the church, he actually went and moved in with my uncle's family and assimilated into their family. And I think we had a bit of interaction with him. And keep in mind, I still, at this age, was not aware that he had been sexually abusing me.

23:01 Right. Yeah. And so I only saw him a few times. And then after I did remember, I only saw him, like, two more times after that. Well, in my teenage years, I should say. And so, yeah, they just essentially just disassociated from the family and went on their merry way. And then we just tried to pick up the pieces and, you know, with that sense of loss. My dad actually came out that he had pretty severe PTSD from the Vietnam War. So he started going to therapy, and a lot of things came out with that. And I would say between 95 and 2007 was a very, very tumultuous time for my family.

23:49 I genuinely don't know how we survived. There was so much had happened in such a short time. I mean, I literally could be here for hours talking about it all with what happened with us individually and as a collective marriages and divorces. And it was just incredibly chaotic. And we were all just left to deal with it. We didn't talk about it openly, and dad and Susan split up for a bit. And dad just wanted to be with mom, you know, and he did that. And then after six months of being with my mom full time, my dad's like, I can't do this anymore. And then he left, and my mom told me it was my fault that he left. Literally said those words. My dad left.

24:32 Your dad left me because of you. When I was 16, just there. I. Again, I didn't realize how awful my life was until I started telling it to people from outside of the church. Regular, everyday people. I shared with my best friend at 16. About, you know, at that time was I had finally started having the courage to talk about the abuse from my brother. And I did. One night, I had a knife to my wrist, and I called my sister Jenny, and she picked up the phone, and I was. She talked me off the ledge, essentially. And she's like, look, it's time for you to tell your mom. Dad, Jenny is Susan's child.

25:18 But another six months went by before I had the courage to tell them. And when I did tell them, they were in complete disbelief because Marcus had been, like, the perfect son. He was, you know, very devoutly religious, never did anything wrong, and so they didn't really believe me. But the next day, my dad did call him, and he admitted to it. Yeah. Were you the only one? Yes. From him. There had been other very minor instances with other siblings that I have become aware of, but within my family, yes. Yes. I know that some of my other siblings were sexually abused by, like, my uncles and things like that. So within my family, that was the only, like, severe one. And I guess. But when dad confronted Marcus, dad told him to write me and my mom an apology letter.

26:12 Why my mom needed one, I don't know. A few weeks later, I come home from school, and my says, your letter from Marcus is right there. I saw mine and I saw hers. I never read hers. I actually still have mine. I read it a few months ago. But one thing that is forever seared in my brain is that he said, we both know there was no real damage done. And in reading the letter, which I had not read in decades, I read it a few months ago. There was no accountability on his part. And by then, he had had children. He had daughters, and he mentioned them. You know, I can't. He felt because he didn't penetrate me with his penis that there was no real damage done. And it happened more than once.

26:58 I do know that. And that letter, I read it, and it was never spoken about again. And I was 15, and I was left to deal with that on my own and never given any amount of support to deal with that. And when I say how that has shaped me as a human being, I genuinely do not know how I survived those years. I was suicidal every day. And I look back and I see pictures of Myself, and I got so good at hiding it. Like, you look at pictures of me and you would have no idea what I was dealing with behind the scenes. And I've shared more publicly, obviously. I have survived three suicide attempts.

27:45 I have a podcast that I co host with a very dear friend and it's called the Survivors Podcast. And I've shared in detail about my suicide attempts. And I've had aunts and cousins reach out to me and they. I had no idea. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through that alone. I wish I would have known. I. But I was taught that you stay quiet, you don't talk about it, especially when it occurs in your own home. And the amount of emotional neglect from my parents, you know, I don't know that I'll ever be able to forgive them. And what makes me the most angry is that a few years later, my brother Brent came forward about being sexually abused by Warren.

28:30 And he was proclaimed a hero and was put on talk shows and he wrote a book and was given just a tremendous amount of support. And I just was like, what about me? And so I felt like I didn't matter. I felt so incredibly insignificant and that it was my fault. I brought it on myself. But how could a three year old bring that onto herself? No. Oh, my God. I just have. I mean, I have the deepest well of sadness and compassion for 3 year old you, but then 15 year old you, because even though they're both you, they were essentially different people, right? And the act of reliving your trauma through the neglect of other people that basically show or tell you that they don't care is as bad, if not worse than the original trauma itself. To go through something that changes you as a person and changes your life, it destroys your innocence. And then to bring that to somebody that you trust and to be told

30:02 at best that it doesn't matter or it wasn't that big of a deal and to basically just get over it, that is its own form of severe trauma, that it's not just something you can sweep under the rug. But I think what people don't realize is they don't know what to say in those moments. It's not good enough because you're creating another traumatic event for somebody that has ar that is already trying to heal from the first trauma. And so, you know, I. I'm not saying that everybody has to have the perfect words or the perfect response, but what I will say is we have this idea in our heads that people lie about being abused if that does happen, it is so insignificant to the amount of people that refuse to come forward because they don't believe that they're going to be welcomed or believed when they tell their story.

31:06 And so what I would say is we have to just believe the people that are telling their stories and just. We don't have to qualify it. It's their story to tell, right? Absolutely. So your brother came out and he told his story. What's the next? The one good, positive thing that did come out of that is a foundation was formed which allowed for children coming out of the FLDS cult to receive therapy. Was he the first one to speak up about Warren Jeffs? Yes. Yes, he was the first. And then that brought on a whole, eventually, the lawsuit that would eventually put him in prison. He wasn't prosecuted for what he did to Brent, per se, but that was just basically the opening door of it that would bring forth other charges. But. So a foundation was formed, and children that were from the FLDS could receive free therapy. And I started seeing psychologists, and I believe I was around the ages of 18 or 19. And he diagnosed me with complex PTSD because of the systematic, you know, being abused by my brother as a young child, and then the systematic abuse of emotional neglect and emotional. Or excuse me, and physical abuse from my mother growing up.

32:34 She, you know, was very physically abusive, emotionally abusive. And then, you know, being left to deal with all of what Marcus had done to me on my own. And I didn't even fully understand it and haven't for a number of years. I've kind of, through EMDR therapy and stuff, have remembered previous therapy sessions and things like that, and it's. It's insane when life continues to happen, and it's just like, one thing on top of the other. Like, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, my gosh, this is a lot. I'm not even halfway through what has occurred. So in that regard, I try to look at it like, yes, this crappy thing happened.

33:21 What has it done to me, and what can I do about it moving forward? And I know it's my responsibility to heal. Even though all these awful things have happened, I know it's my responsibility to heal. And I have come to the conclusion that forgiveness is not required. I do not have to forgive Marcus for stealing my innocence. I do not have to forgive my parents for leaving me alone in that. I do not have to forgive my mother for being absolutely horrible to me, for hijacking my soul.

34:02 I could forgive her for what happened in my childhood, some of it because I know she was doing the best she could under the circumstances, being, you know, trying to raise a family in such a toxic environment with sister wives that were constantly fighting and bickering and my dad didn't know what to do. But what I can't forgive her for is her continued mistreatment of me into adulthood and continuing to dismiss me and discard me. That's what I can't forgive her for. And I know that because I have showed up for her and it's never been good enough. I have never been held to the same standard that Jenny has because she's the golden child. Even though she's not biologically my mom's child. Jenny is the golden child. Oh my.

34:49 And I realize now, I mean, when I tell you that I have read more books than I can count on, Toxic Family Cycles, because I had to make sense of it all. You know, what I haven't shared is that I have lost five brothers to suicide. And the most recent one was coming up here. We're coming up on his one year anniversary, March 16, 2025. And I have tried to make sense of it by reading and because that's just the way my brain works, I needed to make sense of it. And the amount of like all the postmarks of what a toxic family looks like, my family has it in spades. And people have asked, you know, what happened or how could this continue to happen?

35:38 And I just have to say we were marinated. And this is a phrase that was used by one of my therapists. We were marinated in trauma. It wasn't just a one singular event. And I know that I'm not the only one in my family to have some bad things happen to them. It was a number of us, some of us had it worse than others. I know that Clayne was my oldest brother and he was actually the first brother to take his life. In 2002, he was horrifically sexually abused by my dad's older brothers. Jesus. And that is ultimately why he took his life. And this is the one that had a child and had left and. Yeah, yeah, he had to.

36:24 The daughter was his second child and she died in 97. And then he took his life in 2002 and it was after 18 months. He had always been what we would call what was called, referred to as a troubled child. He just was angry all the time and we couldn't figure out, you know, the parents couldn't figure out why they took him to a. Like a troubled Boy's home. And he eventually went to live with another family. And, you know, we. It came out about 18 months before he took his life. And he had attempted suicide many times. He would try to od, but he had been using drugs since he was like 12 years old, and he had built up such a high tolerance that he would OD and just end up in the hospital. And about 18 months before he took his life, he had came out in hypnotherapy.

37:19 That all the horrific things that had been done to him as a young boy, and it was just too much for his brain to handle. And he put a shotgun in his mouth and his wife and his young boys are the ones that found him. He did it while they were home. Yeah. I mean, when you talk about that, I think the first thought that came into my head was, I understand why forgiveness isn't on the table. I get it. You know, I mean, we have this idea that, like, generally speaking, I want to say, yeah, I believe in the power of forgiveness, but I also think that accountability has to be a part of that.

38:03 And there has been none, zero, absolutely zero accountability whatsoever. And that's how forgiveness happens. You know, there's a lot of buzz going on in the world right now about children going, no contact and all the. But what people don't understand and speaking from somebody who has gone no contact with their family before, it comes after years and years of begging for scraps, begging for the smallest amount of. Of accountability or, or love that you see your parents give to other siblings.

38:47 That hurts more than I can ever describe. Because, you see, they're capable of it. Yeah, but I'm not worthy of it is what gets said in my brain. I don't deserve it. I'm not worthy of it. I will never be good enough as what I have said to myself for years. Yeah. And I don't know if that's. Those voices will ever stop because I. I will be honest. I still struggle to live every day. And I am coming out of a. A depressive state myself just recently. And when I say that the only reason I am alive is for my children, because I can't.

39:28 I can't do that to them. I. I saw what it did to my. My nephews and they, you know, even though they were just little. I'm talking. They were just little, little boys. But I also have a dear friend who. Her dad took his life when he. When she was 17 years old, and it's been over 30 years and she still hasn't gotten over It. So I. I can't. I can't do that to my children. People don't understand how exhausting it is to find the will to live when all you want to do is just give up. It's like living a marathon every day, running a marathon every day, trying to find the will to get through the day.

40:18 Because your brain constantly tells you it's the end, it's okay, it's okay to let go. It would be so much easier just to let go. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that don't understand that, but I think there are a lot of people that do, but have never had a space to talk about it or had. Never have never had the words to put to it. And so that's one of the reasons why I think your story and the podcast that you and Lisa host is so important, because there's so. There is a lot of shame surrounding this. A lot of shame. And like, less shame, more compassion. Like, this doesn't come from nowhere. People don't. Don't want to leave happy lives, happy families, happy childhoods.

41:13 There something is. Something's wrong. And even if it's your, like, chemical makeup, your brain, there's something that's wrong. And so it's not this. It's not a simple thing. It's not a black and white thing. It's hard and it's complex and it's nuanced and it's human. But we're still in a space that it's very difficult to be honest about because people don't know what to do with it. When you're honest. Absolutely. They are a complete lack. Loss of words. And I love my husband very dearly, but he had no idea because I have spent decades learning to hide it. And so when I was open and honest with him a couple of weeks ago and I let him read some poems that I had written, he doesn't know what to do. And I don't blame him for that. Sure.

42:08 He just shows up the way he does, which is to make sure that the kids are taken care of, they're to their sports, you know, the. That things are getting done because I have to. I mean, this is not the worst depressive episode I've ever had by far. I mean, I'm still going to work and functioning like that's the other thing too, is like, I. I'm still functioning on the outside, what appears to be normal, but what I would consider slowly dying on the inside. Yeah. And so I'm, you know, on the upswing of It. And every time I've been in a dark place, I've been the one to climb out. I've had to claw my way out, and it's exhausting. I'm on the upswing, on the bottom end of the bell, I would say. But it's a definite struggle.

43:00 And I definitely think there needs to be a better education on how to handle people when they come to you, when they have the courage to come to you and say, look, I am in this dark place. And I think the best thing that anybody could do is listen and just be there. No judgment, no remind. This is. This is the worst thing that people could do, and they do it all the time. Do not remind them that they have so much to live for that layers a whole other level of guilt, because nine times out of 10, they already know they have a lot to live for. And you reminding them of that, it's just another brick on top that just makes it that much heavier. Yeah. And so I would say, you know, just listening to them, asking what you can do to support them or what do you need in this moment? Or just a small. You know, even if they don't. If they don't have anything to.

44:00 You know, if they don't know what to say or how they. You can show up for them. My aunt did this thing for me where she called me every single day for, like, three months. She's like, I'm gonna call you every single day on my lunch break. She's like, you don't have to answer. I'm just gonna call you every day. And she did that religiously. She would always leave a message. Sometimes I would answer, most of the time not. But just to know that somebody cared enough to show up for me every single day was incredible. Wow. Even if you don't have time to call, just a text message. And Lisa, when I did, was honest with Lisa, and I told her she did check in with me every day for a week or two. And again, it's just showing up and knowing that somebody knows that dark side of you, that you're in that dark place, and they're just witnessing it and they're holding that space for you is incredibly important.

45:01 You don't have to fix it. You don't have to make it better. Just being there and witnessing it and knowing that you. That you have that support is incredibly healing. Wow. I think that is so profound and so important that you said that, because, again, I think people, generally speaking, do the best that they can. Right. And they don't know what to do. And so a lot of times what that looks like is us pulling away. Because there's also a fear that if, if we press in, we're going to do or say the wrong thing. And so having some practical instruction or guidance in terms of like what's actually helpful versus what's not, I think is really important because it puts you in the mindset of somebody that is actually living through that and not somebody that is coming looking in from the outside and really, truly doesn't understand what somebody else is walking through. But I think it's great to know that those, that impulse to check in isn't wasted even if you aren't getting a response. Right. I think there's, I've personally had this where I'm like, I'm just not going to keep, I'm not going to keep texting or I'm not going to keep calling because I feel like I'm bothering them because they're not answering. And I don't want to be

46:31 that annoying person. And knowing that, you know what, it's, it's great to know that somebody is thinking about you even if they don't have the current capacity to respond, you know, is encouraging to keep going, keep pushing in, pressing in how you can without crossing anybody's boundaries. Right. Like don't show up every day. Right. But you know, letting somebody know that you're thinking of them is important. Yeah. And I would say even, you know, if you decide, okay, I don't have time for a phone call maybe and all you can offer is a text message not asking, how are you today? Don't ask, don't ask. Just all you have to say is I love you. Yeah, I'm thinking of you.

47:22 Just small, simple things. Just wanted you to know I was thinking about you today. I am here. Just small, simple little things like that. Because even though somebody who is suicidal, they know most of the time that they're loved and they're cared for and that people will miss them. There's something that happens, I think within the brain or in the psyche that blinds us to that. And we're just deep in our thoughts and it doesn't matter. No matter how much I keep fighting, life's just gonna keep beating me down. Nobody really is gonna notice if I'm not hear those kinds of thoughts. Yeah. Especially when I was suicidal in my early 20s, I survived three attempts within. It was a two or three year period. Wow. And it's an absolute medical miracle that I am alive today. I should not Be here today.

48:16 And so I know what it takes to get into that dark place. I have put a gun to my head. I have swallowed countless pills. I have swallowed rat poison in an effort because I had made the decision to end my life. And I was pissed. When I tell you I was pissed I was still alive. Oh, yeah. I was mad because I had made that decision. I had done the thing. And that is why I would say my brothers, so five have died by suicide. Of the four are self inflicted gunshot wounds. Wow. Yeah. Oh, wow. That is so. It's so intense. But you think because it, you're just, you've made that decision and so it's the, the quickest way to make sure it happens.

49:07 Yes. Okay. David was the second brother to take his life on Valentine's Day 2005. And he overdosed. Initially, we didn't think it was a suicide, and it was actually, it hasn't been ruled a suicide, but based on his emotional state and where he was at, it was, you know, in what was going on in his life. We do believe it was a suicide. Yeah. And he swallowed copious amounts of narcotics and we had, you know, we put our lives back together. We went on with our lives and we just did the best we could, all of us. We began having families and we were, you know, most of us were doing okay. You know, life had been, had been rough, but we were putting ourselves back together. A lot of us had gone to therapy trying to cope with, you know, being raised in a cult and realizing Jesus, our lives, our childhoods were not this amazing thing that we thought it was.

50:03 And then in 2002, or excuse me, in November of 22, is when our lives changed in such a drastic way. When Corey, our youngest brother, who knew he was loved and cherished, I mean, and he said that in his suicide note. He left a beautifully written suicide note. And he said, I know I'm loved and cherished. He's like, he's stressed. So importantly, I want you to know that it is nobody's fault. I just can't do it anymore. I just cannot live this life anymore. And he took his life.

50:45 He had said in his letter, he had explained that there had been other attempts and he was very much anti gun, but he bought a gun a week before he took his life. Now, was he born? Cause he, you said he's the youngest. He's the youngest brother. He's Susan's youngest child. She had 11 and he's her youngest child and he was born in 94. So we had not been excommunicated from the church. So there's, you know, I have a Zachary from on down. So the last five children don't really remember life inside the polygamy. They don't really have much of an experience. Kind of seems I seem to be the last one that remembers any of it. I, Susan, or excuse me, Martha took her three daughters and we don't have any contact with them and so I don't know, you know, what their experience was. Was she also part of the excommunication or.

51:39 No, because she had already left. She left in, I think it was probably like 93. Okay, 93. When she got reassigned. Yeah, she was reassigned to another man and went on to have more children with him. And but Corey, he just, he just talked about this darkness. And I do remember Clayne talking about it or excuse me, I don't personally remember about my brothers. Clayne was 13 years older than me, so I didn't have a lot of interaction with him. He left the family when I was pretty young. But Corey talked about this darkness that was just always there and he was tired of fighting it. And the last thing he wrote in his suicide note was sometimes the dragon wins.

52:19 And I mean, when I talk about a dear sweet soul, just the kindest, sweetest person you could ever imagine, wouldn't hurt a fly. He was always incredibly skinny. And I had a conversation with him, I think about a little over a year before he took his life, a very, very in depth conversation. And he had struggled with anxiety, pretty severe anxiety and depression from the time he was pretty young. And he did go to his mother again at 14 years old and said, mom, I am not doing well emotionally. I need help. She didn't get him any. It seems to be an interesting age for you and your siblings, that kind of coming of age and maybe remembering some repressed things from childhood. He was around, I mean, he wasn't. You were older than him, but. Yeah, I was nine years older than him. And I did specifically ask him in that last in depth conversation that I had with him and I asked him had he ever been sexually abused and he said no. Okay. Because he had shared with, you know, the darkness, you know, as I had survived three attempts and I, you know, he didn't know about mine. He didn't know about. He.

53:33 At that point we were, he was in his late 20s, I was in my 30s. He didn't know about what Marcus had done to me in depth. He had heard rumors about it within the family, but he didn't know in depth to what had happened. And so I did share with him about that. But yeah, he definitely could relate to the darkness that he talked about. And I mean he was the poster child. He was in therapy. He was so incredibly in tune with his body. He was doing yoga, he was doing meditation, reading, I mean, taking medications. He was doing all the right things and was it. But you know, it just comes down to, it gets too much. And so in that regard, I cannot fault him.

54:16 I like to explain it this way. When somebody is suicidal or they're carrying whatever it is that they're carrying, imagine them walking around with a gaping wound that won't heal that becomes eventually it just grows and grows and grows akin that to somebody with cancer. They're dying of cancer and they know it's terminal. Would you ask that person to continue fighting so that it doesn't hurt you? That is what suicide is, a gaping invisible wound that will not heal. And so knowing how hard it is to survive the loss of suicide as a family member by suicide, I know that, but I would never beg somebody to stay because it would cause discomfort to me. Yeah, I know that sounds weird. No, but. No, it doesn't. I think you're offering a lot of insight to people that have never experienced this before. Because I will say I think I can't, I can't make a generalized statement, but I assume that people that have experienced suicide in their family in some capacity are at least a little bit familiar with what you're talking about. But there's a lot of beliefs about suicide

55:48 from people that have, that it's never touched personally. And that I think is where we get really self righteous and we get really black and white thinking about things. And you know, I, I look at it from a perspective of, you know, suicide is not something that I'm, that I know a whole lot about. But domestic violence is, and there is, so are so many misconceptions about domestic violence to the point where I'm like, I don't, I don't know how people still believe this about domestic violence, but it's because it's never touched them in a personal way. And so if people are willing to listen, to be educated about something that they don't know anything about, it only helps all of us as a society, as community. Because the other thing that I will say is that people will only speak up when they feel safe. And so if you are not a safe person because you're, the ideas that you're holding are more important than the People you're holding them about, you are never going to hear from those people. That's right.

57:09 Absolutely. And if somebody has the courage to come to you and share an incredibly difficult and vulnerable thing, just know what amount of courage it took for that person to come to you and know that you are a safe place. So that is a place that you're coming from. Honor, like operating in a space of wow. I am incredibly honored that you would trust me enough to share this with me. Yeah. Because it does. And with any situation, whether it's suicide, domestic violence, sexual abuse, any of those things that are incredibly difficult for somebody to have the courage to speak up about because I mean, it doesn't take away the shame. As much as our society has changed in the last 10, 15, 20 years about sharing these things publicly and openly, it doesn't take away the fact that there is still shame and blame.

58:03 Like for years I believe that little three year old me asked for to be sexually abused, that I did something to draw that to him, to me. Absolutely no way. And I'm sure that similar situation with you and what your ex husband did to you, that somehow you did something to upset him or to whatever, to bring that to yourself. Sure, sure. It's, it, I mean, in a way it's easier, Right. To think that we had control over it. Right. And so we could have stopped it because then we don't, we don't need that accountability. We're, we're in control of all, everything that we need because, oh well, if it's my fault, then then it, it stop, it starts and stops with me.

58:50 And I don't need to upset the apple cart, as it were, and, and call for accountability. But that's not how that works. Right. So your teenage years were obviously incredibly tumultuous as you're trying to process what you have been going through, what your childhood was like. Was your mom also born into flds? Yes, just generational. Okay. Yeah. With both my parents. So I mean, unpacking that for everybody, plus the trauma on top of it, plus your brother's dying by suicide, how. How did you survive your teenage years? I don't, I genuinely, I look back at that and I have absolutely no idea.

59:48 I. People are like, well, did you turn to drug? I. I can honestly say to this day I have only ever smoked pot. I know a lot of my siblings did turn to drugs and alcohol. I mean, I, I never, I don't, I think the only way that I really, I did turn to food. I guess that was my Coping mechanism was food. But I didn't get super overweight until I got on antidepressants. When I ended up getting severe postpartum depression after my second child was born. But I just learned to cope. I had my first suicide attempt, that was in 2004 and again was given no support. How old were you at this point? 19. Yeah, my sister Jenny is actually the one that found me.

1:00:34 I was on her back deck with a gun to my head and she said that I pointed the gun at her when she came out and I don't remember doing that. I do remember my dad was called and he came down to talk to me. I remember speaking to a psychologist on the phone to see if they were gonna check me in on a 72 hour hold but I wasn't and then I was just sent home to my apartment to deal with it on my own. Oh my word. I do remember my best friend came and spent a night with me, a couple of nights with me. But I just, I. But no one from your family? No. Was it like this idea that you were okay now or was it just an apathy?

1:01:20 Probably, yeah, I think it was just. I genuinely, I don't know, it's really quite odd that the. Having just lost Clayne, right. And like two years, two, three years prior and then six months later David died. And I did find my journals and I've read them in the last six months and I attempted suicide more times than I can even count. Where I didn't actually. Where it was I was putting together a plan or whatever or. And finding suicide notes like countless where I had written the note I was. But I don't remember that specific instance. I only remember the three and nobody had any idea. I do know that the second and third attempts were within a 48 hour window. That was in 2006.

1:02:15 I do know that my roommate at the time was aware of it. I vaguely remember her call. She was on the phone with somebody. I don't know if it was George who is my husband now. She was on the phone with George or my dad or somebody because I do remember my dad coming and trying to talk me out of it and reminding me how much I was loved and things like that. George was aware and he begged me not to. But I basically laid it out like this. I had made the choice, I was going to do it no matter what anybody said. I was done. And I told George, I said, look, you have two choices here. You can go ahead and check me in, I'll do whatever they tell me to do. I'm just gonna get out and I'll do it anyway. Or you can just let me make this choice on my own. I've made the choice and just let me go peacefully on my own. I wrote the suicide note and I swallowed. I had a couple bottles of leftover like narcotics from surgery. I swallowed that and then I shoveled handful upon handful upon handful of rat poison in my mouth. And I woke up the next day. I got up. What? Yeah, I woke up the next day, was pissed and got up and went to work like nothing happened. George was incredibly surprised to see me at work that day again. I don't have a lot of recollection of this time. I think he was obviously grateful to see me alive.

1:03:43 And then I think it was the next night that I swallowed 33 Lunesta sleeping pills which are stronger than Ambien. And I was pissed. And I do know that George had, he had come home with me that night and was begging me and just begging me, please don't do this, please don't do this. And I made him leave. And George does not cry. And he said he cried the entire 45 minute drive home sobbing, knowing that he would never see me again. And I took the pills and I remember as if I was gonna probably drift off into a coma and it was almost like being shocked by a defibrillator. I just remember gasping for air. And I felt Clayne and David there with me.

1:04:33 They were there and there was multiple times that night where that happened where I was probably gonna drift off into a coma and slip off and die. And something brought me back. Yeah, wow. And I called George around 4 o' clock in the morning sobbing. And I said, I just won't die. Why won't I just die? And he said, I don't remember all of what he said, but he said, try to get some sleep, I'll come get you in the morning. Cause he lived almost an hour away and he said I'll come get you in the morning. And he did. It was Halloween and I went to work incredibly stoned because, you know that much sleeping pills in my system and I don't think I had any pto, I don't remember. But I think he just brought me to work because we worked together on the same team and had some really good friends at work and they. And I think he just brought me to work so that they got all keep an eye on me at work because they knew if I was at work. I don't think they knew at the time, obviously, George did, but the friends, he's just like, let's keep an eye on her here at work. And then again, over the next few days, I had to pass said rat poison and those narcotics and all of that through my system. And that was incredibly painful. I never went to the doctor. I never sought medical attention. Oh, my God.

1:05:52 And I had to pass all of that. And I'm talking, like, violent, violent stomach cramps. And I remember laying in bed with George one night and just my whole body was shaking as it was, trying to pass all of that through my system. Wow. And I never, ever sought therapy. And the interesting thing was I had just started seeing a new therapist because I knew how dark it was. So I saw him the week before, and I had these two attempts, and then I went back a week or so later, and he's like, it's very good to see you. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, I wasn't expecting to see you alive. He knew. Really? He knew. And I said, well, how would you have known if I died? And he said, I was checking the obituaries. And he.

1:06:36 He had said, I knew there was nothing I could do to stop you because you had made up your mind. And that's the. That's where I have an incredibly different perspective is because you could. Somebody can know again that they're loved and cherished and all that you. It doesn't matter. When somebody has made that choice and there comes a peace with it, that the pain will be over. And that's why each time I would wake up and I was mad, because I just wanted that pain that I was carrying inside of me to be over. And so I see all the people out there that struggle every day, or maybe not see them personally, but I feel them. And if you can just find one thing each day. But I also.

1:07:27 I hesitate to say this, but I just. It's okay. It's okay to let go. And I know what it's like because I had to say that to my dad when he died of cancer. I had to call him because he was waiting for me, and I had to call him and tell him it was okay to go. And he drifted off into a coma an hour later. And so as much as you know that you're loved and you're cherished and everything, but if it just. It gets so heavy, and I know what it does to those that you leave behind, but it's such a heavy thing to carry. I mean, I. Have you ever been Suicidal or dealt with that? Yes. And so having come from that perspective, what do you say about it? Like, when.

1:08:17 What's your perspective on, I guess, on if somebody decides to take their life? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's an incredibly complex thing. And I can't. I will never sit here in judgment of somebody who has chosen that for themselves. Because, yeah, I have been in a place where I was making plans. I didn't get extremely far, but I was making plans. And it was, you know, growing up the way that I did, it was a sin.

1:08:57 Right. And so that was. That was the biggest thing. It's a sin. But I think that is such a. It's such an easy view to take of something that is incredibly complex and that leaves no room for compassion, which my relationship with God is full of. So I think that, you know, suffering is. We all have our limits of how much we can suffer, and humanity unfortunately, suffers constantly. And we are all have. Have to make the choice our choices. And I don't say that in a flip way. I say that your threshold or your ability to what you're able to live with and take and be okay with, I guess, is different from everybody else's.

1:10:02 And that has to be okay because we are all made differently and the way that we process information is different. And I think that's something that, you know, going through therapy myself, I have. Am still trying to learn because, you know, one of the biggest questions and I think a lot of people struggle with this is like, well, why does this affect me and it doesn't affect somebody else? Why am I so hung up on this? But. But that person over there seems to be doing fine. First of all, you don't know that they're doing fine. But second of all, the way that our brains process information is different. And so we are all very complex creatures. And it's not as simple as you walk down this path.

1:10:51 And this is the formula for a good life or for healing. It is a constant struggle. And the other thing I would say about it is everybody is, on some level, you know, everybody's struggling with something we have chosen as a society, what it's okay to struggle with and what it's not. And that's really not our decision to make, right, as a whole? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everybody is dealing with their own thing at the. In any given moment. And even though I know, for example, you know, my family, collectively, we've all lost five brothers together, but no two people even within the same household have experienced the same thing. Or have gone through the same thing, because we all get different versions of different people, depending on our own perspective and our own experiences. And so if we can just have some compassion and just listen to people, give them grace and just let them know that they're not alone and they're loved. And how we can show up for each other in a place of love and kindness goes such a long way. Huge. Such a long way.

1:12:09 It's the most important thing that we can do for each other. And there's so much talk about showing up and being vulnerable and being authentic and genuine. And I believe we are all craving that, which is why there's so much conversation around it. But again, to reiterate what we were talking about before, people won't do that if they don't feel safe to do so. So even authenticity has been co opted by veneer. And we have to intentionally create space where people feel like they can show up as their authentic selves in order for any of this to move, for us to move the needle to a better world or a better version of ourselves.

1:13:05 And I would say allow showing. And how we can show up authentically for each other is you showing up authentically. And maybe if you notice that somebody is, they might be a little bit off, but they don't quite feel, but they don't want to share, maybe share something a little vulnerable with them about you. And then that gives them that permission. They're like, okay, this person is opening up to me. Maybe this is a safe place for me to go ahead and share this. Yeah. And so sometimes people need that permission, a little open door to have that dialogue. Sure, absolutely. And you know, remember that it is a privilege when people share with you.

1:13:51 I think sometimes it depends on who the person is in our lives, but sometimes we can see it as a burden. And look, I get it. There are people that it's just a constant state of feeling like they are emotionally taking from you. I get that. And please have boundaries. You do still have to have boundaries for yourself. You are not an infinite supply of humanity and support for somebody else. Right. If that's one thing I can say about my other experience, my other two brothers, Brandon and Monroe, we had just lost Corey. We just lost our dad to cancer.

1:14:41 And we were all just trying to survive. In a eight week period, Corey died, our maternal grandfather died and our dad died. And we were just floundering trying to survive and we couldn't keep our own heads above water. So this is where it comes in with boundaries, where if we Were the rest of us were barely keeping our own heads above water. And some of us could see that Brandon was struggling. But you can't save somebody who won't save themselves. So this is, you know, where we were trying to be supportive. And particularly another brother that he was living with was trying to be as supportive as he could, and it was just not making any difference. And so this brother had to ask Brandon to move out, and he moved in with another brother, and he just wasn't getting any better. And Jenny had gotten Brandon to a point where he was going to go serve this some sort of mission for two years. He was going to go and donate his time, and they take care of you, you go live with them, they take you, they feed you, but you're basically in service of somebody else for two years. And then at last minute, he backed out. And then I think it was within like, 24 or 48 hours he disappeared and we couldn't find him.

1:15:59 And then we, you know, eventually they. They found his body and he had taken his life. And he left a note. The only note that we found in his car was, you got what you wanted, the number four, because he was number four to go. So we don't know if that was meant for us. So we've all kind of taken our own stance on that. I do know some of my siblings believe he was taken out by the mob, whatever, the FLDS mob. No, I just, you know, sorry, not mean to laugh, but. No, no, no. You know, I think that's just them trying to come to terms with the fact that how could we have four at that point? And so that note for me was his suicide note. I had a very emotionally close relationship with Brandon. We didn't always physically or. But he and I had an emotional connection because he and I had a similar experience growing up. We were the unseen, we were the unwanted. And so when he died, a part of me died with him. And I struggled incredibly, incredibly hard following his death.

1:17:19 But I want to, you know, and what I was getting to was that we couldn't save him and he wouldn't save himself. And so, again, if somebody in your life takes their life, yes, there is an initial. Like, what more could I have done? I have with all five brothers. There's always been, like, a different perspective, a different reason why. And so that's where it's a unique perspective for my family, is that we have had such a diverse reason for each one of them. You know, Brandon refused to get help he had been to. He was in the Army. He. He had gone overseas to fight the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but he refused to get any help. And the same situation with Monroe. He was the fifth one and he had been saying for months, I think even for a few years, he would get incredibly drunk and call siblings or friends and say he was no good and that he wanted to end his life. And it was getting more and more increasing.

1:18:28 Again, I didn't have a close relationship with him, but I know the other siblings had told me that they were getting more and more frequent phone calls in the months leading up to his death of him getting drunk and saying he wanted to end his life. And again, they would remind him how much he would love. Please don't do this to our family. Please don't put us through this again. We cannot survive. And yet he still chose to do it anyway. I know he left some suicide notes. I didn't read any of them because they were for direct, certain family members, but they made that choice knowing what it felt like to lose somebody, to lose a sibling, and still choosing to do it anyway. And I'm trying to find a point of all this, but sometimes I don't have one. I think the point is that it's your story and that's that this is how it has happened and that's made you who you are today. I'm curious.

1:19:30 So the, the. Obviously I have very little context about your family, but when you said that about Brandon's note, my mind went in a totally different direction. Is your family or any members of your family or your siblings spiritual still? Or has religion kind of been left off of the table because of the experiences in the FLDS church? I don't believe. Well, I think the vast majority of us are pretty much basically like agnostic where we believe in a higher power, but there's no religion. I think my one sister did go to Christian church for a while, but I don't. You know what. But I would say the vast majority of us are not religious in any way. And do you think it's because of the experience in your early life? Yeah, yeah. The religious trauma, having it, you know, force fed, the. The amount of fear that was installed, instilled because of, if you do this, you're going to go to hell. If you breathe in the wrong direction, it was always, if you do anything wrong, you're going to go to hell for the smallest little thing. And that was the teachings of Warren.

1:20:37 You know, the smallest little thing could send you straight to hell. And so, yeah, that's that's religious trauma that was instilled in us from a very young age. Yeah. And what about your parents? Same. Okay. They, they pretty much when we left the church, we did go to the like mainstream Mormon church for a few years because our parents wanted us to have some sort of form of religion. And I think a couple of my younger siblings did get baptized into the Mormon Church, but they never really went beyond that and so they weren't really religious. Yeah. So, you know, in your teenage years, obviously you're still living with your family, but I actually moved out when I was 16. Did you really?

1:21:18 Okay. Because of your relationship with your mom and were you living by yourself? So I moved in. So dad had left mom and gone back to Susan. And so I went and moved in with my dad and Susan for a couple of months. Then I moved in with a family and I became their live in nanny for a few months and then I moved back in with Susan and dad for a few months and then Susan may dad kick me out. And I was just barely 18. And Jeremy, my, my mom's oldest, was living there at dad's, I mean dad's house and Susan's house was kind of like a revolving door, unfortunately, you know, losing apartments or whatever. So it was kind of like always. And so I, I again, I sympathize in that. But Susan was very much, if it was not her biological child, she did not want you there. And she made it very abundantly clear that you are not welcome. But by all means, she had her and dad bought a much bigger house to accommodate her grown ass boys that all eventually moved back home. One was in his 40s. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he could stay as long as he wanted.

1:22:23 Yeah. So, you know, I essentially moved out officially on my own when I was 18 and I never moved back home. And once your dad left your mom for Susan, was that the end of their marriage or relationship? Yes. Yep. They were married for 23 and a half years and it was incredibly. That divorce was incredibly toxic. And you know, they, the way they spoke about each other was just really, really horrific. They were both victims and it was, you know, years of them talking shit about each other. And Ward and Shaelyn were much younger than me and so they were going back and forth, you know, doing the co parenting thing. And I mean, they have their own trauma from the horrific things that were done to them growing up and neglect and a lot of things that in a lot of ways I'm like, I kind of feel like what they experienced with our mom was even worse than what I had gone through.

1:23:20 But that's their story, and I'm not going to speak for them, but I do know that I have an incredible amount of compassion for my siblings, and I love them, but I just. I know that I could not heal in the place that broke me. And so my husband and I have chosen to move across the country, and I don't have any contact with my family anymore. Since my podcast with Lisa went public, they haven't spoken to me, and I haven't. I heard somebody say, well, it sounds like the trash took themselves out. Oh. And I was like, wow, somebody from your family? No, no, no, no, no. An outside perspective was. Was that they took them. The trash took themselves out.

1:24:08 And I, you know, again, coming from a space of, you can't go through what you've been through in my family and not still have some love and compassion. I, again, I love them all. I want them all to be happy, healthy. I just know that I cannot heal and be the person that I need to be within my. And have them a part of my life. Has anybody said anything to you about the podcast? Like, do you know that that is the reason why they're not speaking to you? Oh, absolutely. I know it's the reason why, because I was speaking with my mom regularly and Jenny daily. And then when the clips of our podcasts were released on social media. Yeah.

1:24:52 It has been crickets ever since the very next day. Is it like this sense of betrayal? Like, what is it that they're upset about? It's that I have. Yeah. It's that I have painted my mother in a negative light. And I have done enough research to know that my mother is an undiagnosed narcissist. Actually, a covert narcissist. And so she had. Did the flying monkeys thing. She had them over for dinner. You know, I. So my one brother, Ward, he and I still stayed connected for a couple of months, and he did let me know that mom had. What have I done to Natasha? You know, her life wasn't worse, and. But she would never. And he would encourage her.

1:25:35 Mom, why don't you call Natasha and talk to her? She never would. Because that would require her to be accountable. Right. Or maybe to. You know what I mean? And so she never did. I have never. I have never said, don't call me, don't talk to me. Never again. I have never said any of those things. Things. But it comes down to emotional abuse and that they think that if they give me the Silent treatment, then I'll come crawling back because I've done that in the past and because I didn't want to be the unseen or the unloved. But I have enough self worth to know that if someone truly loved me and cared, they wouldn't do that. Yeah. And so I just, I have to love them from afar. And I don't think that, you know, people are like, oh, what about forgiveness and reconnection? And it's like, no, I don't, I can't.

1:26:34 Think about it from your perspective, you know, domestic violence, even though some of my abuse was physical, but how could you go back? Would you ever go back to him? No. And, and I think about, just because they're family doesn't mean it's okay. In fact, you should tolerate even less because they are your family. Like, less they should be. You know, I'm not making any sense. I don't feel like. No, you are. And I, and I totally understand. And, and also just want to point out that absolutely physical abuse is a very small part of domestic violence and abuse. And you know, from what we know about it is actually the least psychologically harmful in terms of what stays with you, with you in healing and the process of healing. So I mean, there, I'm not, I'm not in the business of qualifying anybody's abuse. Right. But there is a whole spectrum out there. But it's a lot with domestic violence, it's more, it's the psychological that is the most damaging and can leave the most scars internally. And those can be the most damaging is the scars inside that can't be seen and that people are left to carry. And so I just have to say that with anybody that is going through a really hard time and people don't understand, and if you know your

1:28:06 truth and you speaking about it gives them your family or whomever to give you the silent treatment, that is a whole other level of abuse. Yeah. And how dare you do that to somebody, especially somebody that you claim to love. Because that's not love. No, that's coercive control. I think that, you know, what you were saying did does make sense and that there should be a higher standard for your family to treat you with respect and dignity. Because it's how we should be treating all human beings. Right. So that, that should be the baseline. Right. Unfortunately, it's not, but it should be. And so when you actually love somebody, our treatment of them and capacity for them should be so much bigger than it is. Right. And I think that it really does Come down to accountability and.

1:29:13 Or lack of accountability and our unwillingness as humans to face the things that we've done to hurt other people. Right. All of us are capable of and have inflicted pain to somebody else, whether or not it was the. Our intention, and to varying degrees, of course, but we are all capable of inflicting hurt and pain on others. And so we have to be aware of that and to realize that just because it may not have been your intention doesn't mean it didn't hurt or doesn't mean it didn't affect that person.

1:29:57 And so taking accountability is a huge part of being in relationship. And we really have no business being in relationship if we can't take accountability for ourselves. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And it doesn't matter what the relationship is. Sibling, parent, child, they're all. There has to be friendship, coworker, there's accountability because it doesn't matter. You know, and people are coming at it from their own perspective or if, you know, they're within a triggered state or whatever, you could say something that was just totally innocent, it doesn't matter. But if that person comes to you and is like, hey, you know what? This really hurt me, or this really bothered me, and I just wanted you to know, take a step back and realize it wasn't about you. But have accountability for what came out of your mouth or even your own actions.

1:30:50 You know, I want to say that leave the door open, but to what? The possibilities, you know, if there's healing or anything. But, you know, I just. I don't know that I want to have people in my life that would discard me so easily for simply speaking the truth. Yeah, maybe you leave the door unlocked. That's a good way to look at it, because they still have to do the work to open it. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I think as humans, we contain multitudes, and we are. We are capable of so much. I mean, just our physical bodies. You. Your. You have put your physical body through so much. You have been through so much, and you're still here. We are very adaptable and malleable in a lot of ways, and we are very fragile in others. And it's something I think about often that, like, really blows my mind how we can experience so many things and still be here, and then yet other things bring us to our knees, mentally or physically.

1:32:03 And so. So I think one of the things that I've taken from that is that it doesn't have to make sense to everybody. Right. You don't have to understand where your loved one is at for you to have compassion for them. Right? Yeah. I could not agree more. I've had experiences with that where someone I love very, very dearly comes from a perspective I don't understand, and because of that, they can't wrap their brain around it, and they don't seem to have any compassion around it. And I'm not going to say who this person is, but it is someone that I love very dearly. And it has been difficult just because of. That's where their brain operates from. But just give yourself the courage to drop your walls or whatever, your own perspective, it doesn't have to be about you.

1:33:00 If you can just have some compassion and come from a space of, damn, that sounds hard, and that really sucks, but I love you, and I see you like those. Those things that you. You don't have to understand where they're coming from to see them. Yeah. I mean, you and I are meeting for the first time, but when you talk about the things that hurt you, and even though I don't personally have any experience with domestic violence, but damn, do I see that pain. And witnessing that pain does something incredibly healing for people. And just having a space of I love you and I see you is healing beyond what I can even describe. Yeah.

1:33:48 Oh, absolutely. Truly. Truly. I can tell you're a podcaster. You're pretty good at this girl. This. I still, to this day, I feel like I go back and I listen and I watch and I'm like, that doesn't change. Don't worry. Yeah. I just. I just. I hope people hear this. And I know it's a lot to swallow and to take in. It is for me some days, you know, And I mentioned to you earlier offline that I was listening to your previous episode and I had deposit because it was a lot for me to hear. And that's okay. Yeah. And I plan to go back to it when I may be in a.

1:34:29 In a stronger space mentally to listen to it. Because listening to these stories from other people allows you to see people's humanity. And if we can all witness the humanity of each other's struggles, and it gives you a level of compassion that is just absolutely incredible. Yeah. Well, speaking of compassion, I do have a question I ask everyone at the end of each episode. Okay. Through the lens of your experience, what does compassion mean to you? I would say meeting people where they're at and showing them love and kindness and grace. Yeah. Simple in concept, but not always in practice.

1:35:12 Right. Because we're kind of looking at it from our own lens. Yeah. And so much of the time, I feel like we're up in our head, and I don't know if you've ever heard of, like, moving into your heart space. So we operate from our ego mind, which lives up in our brain that talks to you all. I don't know if everybody has somebody that talks to them. I do. My brain is constantly talking to me. But if you can learn to quiet your mind and move into your heart space, you're listening with a whole other set of ears. Yeah. And I guess that comes to where you're seeing and witnessing that pain because you're connecting from your heart space, not your head space. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

1:35:59 I think for myself, sometimes I will get so wrapped up in something, and if I can be aware enough to take a step back and this is probably what you're talking about and say, this is not about me. And then something clicks. Right. Like you're able to. Something that was frustrating or angering or, you know, was inducing, even shame has now become not about me. And so I'm able to see it in a whole different way. Right. And sometimes you don't even. I want to say this. Sometimes you don't even have to say anything. If you can just listen and then give that person a damn big hug. Yes. And don't be the first person to let go. Let them decide when to let go, because that I've done. I've been in that situation where I was hugging somebody and I was the first one to let go, and then you feel them release, and you could tell they weren't quite ready to let go. Yeah. So when you're giving somebody a hug, try not to be the first person to release. So you're gonna be creating games of chicken all around the world now. Hug chicken. I didn't think about that.

1:37:13 Yeah. No. But I do love that it is very important, because being in spaces of hurt, it's very difficult to ask for connection. And so when somebody gives it, you feel like you don't want to take too much. But being allowed to take whatever you need in that moment is, I think, incredibly healing. Yeah, absolutely. And when you hug front to front, and your heart spaces are right next to each other, and your hearts, your souls are talking to each other. They're connecting with each other when you're hugging because they're that close to each other. Yeah.

1:37:55 So even just that hug can be incredibly healing. Yes. Yes. I mean, physical touch itself is very healing. Even as babies, we need it. Right? Like, absolutely. The most important thing is that physical touch. So there is certainly something to that that doesn't go away as we get older, but less and less we. We connect physically. Right. So. Yep. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Did we hit, you know, I mean, I know there's multitudes to your story, so I'm not trying to say we, we covered everything, but did we hit the points that you wanted to cover in the. Yes, I do.

1:38:35 And as it evolves and I share my story and as I learn and I heal, different points come up for me. And so, and I've been told that before by other podcasters that your story changes and it evolves and you share different points of it. And so yeah. Thank you so much for giving me the space to share this. It's been absolutely amazing conversation and I'm very honored to be here with you. Same. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Listening to the human experience. Everyone has a story and I'd love to hear yours. So be sure to check out the show notes for more information about how to stay in touch, do good and love well.